On 10/05/2019 20:55, Geertjan Wielenga wrote: > Yes, I have a lot to learn — for example, I don’t know nor care about the > sexual or gender orientation of anyone in the Apache community where I’m > focused on: Apache NetBeans. > > Can you simply explain why any of this matters, when I cannot possibly > discriminate against anyone’s sexual or gender orientation since code and > coding do not reflect or express these orientations in any way
If all contributions at the ASF were anonymous that would be true. But they are not. A couple of things to consider: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github Google "Unconscious bias" > — and bear > in mind you and I are participating in massive cultural appropriation by > being in an organization called “Apache”. :-) For the record, years ago the ASF reached out to the relevant Native Americans to check if they were happy with us using the name Apache and they confirmed that they were. > I am waiting for Apache indians to complain but they are not. And neither > should you. Code, like maths, like numbers, are outside these discussions. > > Please teach me how your being a trans woman has any impact on the code you > write or contribute. Where are the gendered power dynamics, yes, maybe I am > part of the problem — so please show me where and how. I don't think any committer* at the ASF is consciously discriminating against anyone. However, the stats we have indicate that something is happening. The make up of our communities does not track (i.e. is way beyond any reasonable margin or error) the make up of the communities from where our committers come from. Take that and add it to the reports we get from members of the groups that are under-represented that their experience of the ASF is frequently negative then that suggests to me that there is more we could be doing to be inclusive. I don't want anyone to feel unwelcome at the ASF. If there are things I can do to make other people feel more welcome then I want to find out about them. Mark * I said committer here because I am aware of some very clear, very deliberate discrimination from members of the broader community in more than one project. It was most unpleasant and it got worse when they were called on it. On two occasions I am aware of, it ended up being referred to law enforcement. Fortunately, it is very rare. > > Gj > > On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 19:27, Naomi Slater <n...@tumbolia.org> wrote: > >> as a trans woman, I can tell you that I have struggled because of my >> experiences of gendered power dynamics at this organization >> >> "transgender African Eskimo" sounds like it's meant to be a >> ridiculous/comical example. if you want to make this list feel welcoming, >> you can start by not turning marginalized identities into a throwaway joke >> >> >> >> On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 18:19, Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> >> wrote: >> >>> It's a cluster of topics, i.e., if we're talking about safe spaces (which >>> we are, that was explicitly stated), then we're also in the area of >>> micoaggressions and trigger warnings. We're going to need to sit down and >>> think about what behavior we're already displaying that conforms to the >>> definition of microaggression and what kinds of clause we should state up >>> front before saying something that might be hurtful to the listener based >>> on their suffering and injustice in the past (or present). >>> >>> Again, I'm not against any of these things, I just wonder whether we're >> not >>> using tools and asking questions that may not be relevant at all. I.e., >>> beyond the "from personal experience, I believe there is a problem" and >> the >>> journey we're now starting to articulate a problem, etc, I just don't see >>> what we're trying to achieve, at all. >>> >>> It's really diversity for the sake of diversity and the fact that a >> project >>> has a high dominance of one category or another is in itself a reason to >>> ask why that is and how to fix that. I just don't see the problem and >> that, >>> of course, is exactly the problem, because I'm male and so on and so on. >> We >>> do need to find out whether people are not comfortable participating in >>> Apache projects and why -- and my guess is it has if anything to do with >>> language barriers and personality aspects (e.g., being shy or not >>> sufficiently expressive) and a feeling that one isn't skilled enough, not >>> whether one is a transgender African Eskimo, or something. >>> >>> Gj >>> >>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 6:04 PM Alex Harui <aha...@adobe.com.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I think I understand how microaggressions relate to this topic, but I >>>> don't understand how "trigger warnings" relate. Can someone explain? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> -Alex >>>> >>>> On 5/9/19, 12:28 PM, "Geertjan Wielenga" <geert...@apache.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm not assuming at all that a hijab signifies sexism. Though I'm >>> also >>>> not >>>> assuming that if every single woman in the world were to deny that >> a >>>> hijab >>>> does not signify sexism that therefore a hijab does not signify >>>> sexism. (I >>>> have noted though that not one single man wears a hijab, but let's >>>> leave >>>> the hijab discussion, that's not the point but an illustration.) >>>> >>>> The problems "there" are actually "here". I.e., when we're talking >>>> diversity, we're I think inevitably going to be talking creating >> safe >>>> spaces, which means, as well, trigger warnings and >> microaggressions. >>>> All of >>>> which are important and should be addressed. >>>> >>>> I think my point is that we don't really have a global language of >>>> inclusivity -- and sure everyone should feel welcome at conferences >>>> and so >>>> on. But if we're going to be trying to figure out what blockages >>> there >>>> are >>>> in the participation of contributors based on the subcategories of >>>> identification to which they subscribe voluntarily or by birth -- >>> where >>>> does it end? I'm uncomfortable with the survey, to be honest. >> Though >>> of >>>> course it's important to do our best to ensure that everyone feels >>>> comfortable to contribute regardless of the various identities they >>>> hold. >>>> >>>> Gj >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:18 PM Ross Gardler >>>> <ross.gard...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>> > It is very complicated. For example, your assumption that the >> Hijab >>>> > signifies sexism is contested by every single woman I have known >>> who >>>> wears >>>> > one (which admittedly is a low number and not at all >> representative >>>> of the >>>> > bigger picture). >>>> > >>>> > That said, there are problems everywhere. We can't solve the >>> problems >>>> > there, it's not our place to. But we can solve our problems here >> in >>>> the ASF. >>>> > >>>> > For example, if a woman is attending an ASF event in a Hijab and >> we >>>> assume >>>> > she is wearing it because of inequality in her culture then we >> are >>>> not >>>> > creating a welcoming environment. We are creating barriers >> between >>>> her and >>>> > us because of assumptions based on what our own culture teaches >> us. >>>> In my >>>> > (admittedly limited) experience such a woman is likely wearing >> the >>>> Hajib >>>> > because she chooses to do so and we should respect her right to >>> make >>>> that >>>> > choice. >>>> > >>>> > If it's not a choice for her then it's not something that we can >>>> directly >>>> > influence but we can still make her welcome within our community. >>>> > >>>> > Ross >>>> > >>>> > ________________________________ >>>> > From: Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> >>>> > Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 11:27 AM >>>> > To: diversity@apache.org >>>> > Subject: Diversity in a diverse world >>>> > >>>> > Hi all, >>>> > >>>> > Just a trigger warning here -- I was in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia >>> last >>>> week, >>>> > giving a course in which Apache NetBeans was used. There were 8 >>>> people on >>>> > the course, three of which were women completely covered in black >>>> hijabs >>>> > with only their eyes showing. I do think safe spaces, >>>> microaggressions, and >>>> > trigger warnings are very important -- but in an ecosystem where >>>> there are >>>> > literally women in the back of the classroom with only their eyes >>>> showing, >>>> > it seems complicated to address this diversity topic at all, >> unless >>>> we're >>>> > not concerned about the diversity issues connected to >> superiority, >>>> > colonialism, and ethnocentrism, etc. >>>> > >>>> > And... a year ago those three women would not have been in a >>>> computer class >>>> > at all, so the fact that they were even in the room was a sign of >>>> massive >>>> > progress. >>>> > >>>> > Just want to raise this because what some might see as diversity >>>> could be >>>> > pretty problematic in a global context -- unless we're >> comfortable, >>>> or at >>>> > least very prepared, to deal with the fall out. >>>> > >>>> > Gj >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
