I agree with Tim’s sentiment here. Had a solid SQL Server backend been available 7 or 8 years ago, I would probably have used that due to the requirements from my supervisor. I had to convince him that PostgreSQL would be just as good.
Based on what I read on the Git page, though, the backend doesn’t pass some tests that it seems like it ought to. Once it is better, as Tim already stated, I would absolutely support and wish and hope that SQL Server would become a part of core. It is one of the most popular database backends in use. One argument was made that we don’t need to add any other database backends to core because they are doing fine as third-party dependencies. To that I would ask, why have any database backend in core then? Why not have them all be third-party dependencies? Just my two cents, Matthew From: django-developers@googlegroups.com <django-developers@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Tim Allen Sent: Friday, April 1, 2022 10:02 AM To: Django developers (Contributions to Django itself) <django-developers@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Revisiting MSSQL and Azure SQL Support in Django Full disclosure: I've helped maintain SQL Server Django engine packages in the past, and was involved in getting the project started for the official Microsoft Django engine package. First, thanks to Warren and the folks from Microsoft for creating this backend. There are a fair amount of users that need a Microsoft SQL Server backend, and for years we've been having to shuttle between barely-maintained engines, forks, and pip installs to commit hashes while waiting for merges. It is less than ideal. Several big supporters of Django (The Wharton School, RedHat Ansible, to name two) have been among those looking for a solid backend solution for years. Microsoft has provided us a vastly improved option to what we'd been saddled with for the past decade. The DB popularity index at db-engines.com has regularly listed the top four as Oracle, MySQL, Microsoft SQL Server, and PostgreSQL, in that order. I notice some comments in this thread about Microsoft being for-profit... well, what about Oracle? I don't see Oracle on the Support Django page either, yet two of their databases have support in core. MSSQL is the only one of the big-four RDBMS's without support in core Django. That seems to be a pretty big hole in Django's offering. That said, I completely agree that the backend still needs work, and a solid commitment from Microsoft before being brought into core Django. I want to make sure Microsoft knows that many in our community appreciate their efforts in taking the lead on this backend: support for SQL Server in the Django ecosystem is far better than it ever has been in my eight years of being a Djangonaut. They have put a lot of time and effort into this project, and I think they're well on their way to where they need to be for the long-term goal of being in core Django. A lot of the questions being asked of Microsoft in this thread just don't seem fair to me - we're not asking the same of Oracle, Redis Enterprise Software, or any of the other commercial products that Django has built-in support for. Why Microsoft and not the others? Warm regards, Tim On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:39:17 AM UTC-4 Salman Mohammadi wrote: Hi, IMO, Django is there to create value for *its* users. I'm not aware how MS Team reached this conclusion that merging their incomplete package into Django core creates more value for Django users than when it is a third-party package. Would you please tell me how? I have access to only two resources to calculate the popularity of mssql-django package, one of them is the last Django Survey, https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2022/jan/03/django-developers-survey-2021-results/<https://us-east-2.protection.sophos.com?d=djangoproject.com&u=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZGphbmdvcHJvamVjdC5jb20vd2VibG9nLzIwMjIvamFuLzAzL2RqYW5nby1kZXZlbG9wZXJzLXN1cnZleS0yMDIxLXJlc3VsdHMv&i=NWVjN2YxNzUxNGEyNzMxNmMyMGRkZGU1&t=SGN4MTJxQTFCUFNoR29lZUduQk43bGl0TTFDK0NtZTlVUGkvV3RiWUcrZz0=&h=35eb6939d2dd4d978b08a6a8ae2ffcf7> and the other one is Github Stars. None of them show any sign that MS package is even semi-popular among Django users. We have many popular packages that are residing outside of Django core and living happily their lives. Probably MS wants to use this merge as a marketing point for their MSSQL, a proprietary software. At the end I, as a total outsider with no direct connection of any kind with Django project, have nothing against merging MS package into core the same way that we have Oracle backend. But before that, there are some questions that need to addressed: 1. How can MS package create more value for Django users by getting merged into main branch? 2. According to your internal spying tools, how popular is your package? 3. How can you guarantee the long-term sustainability of your package? 4. What are the previous involvements of MS Package contributors in Django? 5. How does MS support Django Project for its long-term fundraising goals? 6. Is MS Team ready to follow Django Project deadlines? Especially release dates and critical bugs. 7. How does MS support Django Fellows in helping them triaging the tickets, related to MS package. Cheers, Salman Am 31. März 2022 18:30:06 MESZ schrieb Warren Chu <vwa...@gmail.com>: Hi All, There is increasing interest within Microsoft to have stronger ties between Microsoft SQL Server and Django. As you may be aware, Microsoft and their connectivity teams have been managing the 3rd party backend for "mssql-django" for over a year now at: https://github.com/microsoft/mssql-django<https://us-east-2.protection.sophos.com?d=github.com&u=aHR0cHM6Ly9naXRodWIuY29tL21pY3Jvc29mdC9tc3NxbC1kamFuZ28=&i=NWVjN2YxNzUxNGEyNzMxNmMyMGRkZGU1&t=bTAzbkRpZU8zRVAxZU1sc2plWWY4UnFFQlZqbFRweTR0cjcwRFg1UEh3Zz0=&h=35eb6939d2dd4d978b08a6a8ae2ffcf7> Inclusion of SQL Server as a 1st party backend is viewed as a potential big milestone in that regard. @adamjohnson mentioned a year ago that ideally the community would like to see multiple years of ongoing Microsoft support before considering merging as a 1st party backend. We'd love to hear thoughts and feedback around the possibility of moving forward with a DEP enhancement proposal, with a commitment from Microsoft to providing continued dedicated support for the 1st party backend through the Django project itself (rather than the 3rd party repo). Cheers, Team Microsoft -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto:django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/6baed3f9-6cf5-459a-9937-f0c38d64f332n%40googlegroups.com<https://us-east-2.protection.sophos.com?d=google.com&u=aHR0cHM6Ly9ncm91cHMuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS9kL21zZ2lkL2RqYW5nby1kZXZlbG9wZXJzLzZiYWVkM2Y5LTZjZjUtNDU5YS05OTM3LWYwYzM4ZDY0ZjMzMm4lNDBnb29nbGVncm91cHMuY29tP3V0bV9tZWRpdW09ZW1haWwmdXRtX3NvdXJjZT1mb290ZXI=&i=NWVjN2YxNzUxNGEyNzMxNmMyMGRkZGU1&t=N0hoT3N6Q0FzNUVnNnRNcGhLWmFVMmRzTit5UzRWVnBIbHFiOStQSnRNND0=&h=35eb6939d2dd4d978b08a6a8ae2ffcf7>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/f731f769d17b4fa58e8a7dad25eaa7a4%40Exchange.ISS.LOCAL.
