on 10/10/2000 3:02 PM, "Robert Burrell Donkin"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Out there where I work, foolish managers the microsoft and read the hype and
> think - we can use our VB developers to web-enable our applications. I have a
> friend who makes a fortune sorting out the crashs caused by this approach...
>
> For those who don't know about microsoft's web application archetecture, it
> uses extensive client-side processing. The microsoft standard archetecture
> seems to want to use COM to implement it's data access. Quite how this will
> ever work robustly either on a large network or on > a non-winX machine I
> don't know. I have heard that it *does* work well for win2000 machines....
Don't get me wrong...I understand that there are people out there that like
that type of environment. My point though is that I'm not interested in even
talking to those types of people much less trying to convince them to go the
OSS/ECS route at all. It just isn't worth my time. Let them figure it out on
their own.
> I was (inarticulately) trying to contrast using ECS in servlets (or any other
> server-side technology, for that matter) with this alternative approach.
Oh...it is painfully clear what those poor lost souls are dealing with.
> Code generation is Oracle's approach to server-side java connectivity.
> JDeveloper generates data access code based on wizards. This is another
> approach to the same general problem. (Apologies, I tend to ramble)
Turbine has this same type of code generation (not wizard based though as it
really doesn't need to be)...however, Turbine's code generation kicks some
major ass and Oracle's sucks (yes, I have played with those tools and as
soon as you want to do something serious with them, they fall apart at the
seams). :-)
> Unfortunately, I've observed that for many developers, management would
> reverse that order! Yes, I would personally prefer to work in the second way
> but I don't have much of a choice unless I want to flip burgers for a living!
> I've observed that you have to fight twice as hard to get a superior
> technology accepted when it's free. The thing that impresses management most
> is *quick* code. Say that you can use Servlets to get the job done in half the
> time that it would take to implement using IIS - and then they listen.
> Microsoft leverage the fact that there are millions of visual basic developers
> worldwide to sell a relatively immature and bug-riden technology to managers.
> Microsoft can shout much louder than the open source community. Say to
> management that you know a brilliant framework that'll only take a few weeks
> to learn and it'll get you nowhere! It's not good enough to have a better
> technology, you need an army of developers.
Ok here is the comparison:
A brilliant framework for which you have source code, a LARGE (>30)
community of core developers whom you can speak directly with, a mailing
list with less than 12 hour response times and it is free to do whatever you
want with it.
vs.
A closed source, buggy, proprietary solution that you have to pay mega $$$
for not only purchasing the software, but paying for support and updates.
There is also no freely available mailing lists with less than 12 hour
response time and you are lucky if you get a useful response from a Usenet
group.
Hmmm, I think the choice is pretty obvious.
> Acceptance of means giving newbies
> ways that they can get stuff working quickly! Don't worry - once they start
> looking to move their projects forward they will come looking for more
> sophisticated development frameworks.
Sure, but if they are already on the ECS list...then I have already gotten
their interest, right? I might as well help steer them the right way from
here.
> (apolgies for not reading my email before sending it... I had the flu but
> that's no excuse) My opinion is that newbies should be recommended to begin
> with JServ not tomcat. It's easier to install and *much* simpler to get simple
> servlets running. It's not as sophicated but simplicity has it's own merits.
> When they realise that they *need* Tomcat then they'll move. (Before you ask I
> have installed both and have been subscribed to the mailing lists for quite
> some time.)
LOL! Given that I was the one who wrote and debugged about 80% of JServ's
installation process, I will take that as a compliment. :-)
As for getting Tomcat up and running. It is only difficult if you want to
connect it with Apache. If you want to run it standalone, it is
trivial...how hard is doing this:
cd $TOMCAT_HOME
./bin/startup.sh
?
In fact, that is the power of the Turbine Developers Kit (TDK) because it
bundles Tomcat pre configured to use Turbine. You really should go download
it and play with it a bit.
> My point is that I'd recommend newbies not to start with a framework at all!
> Frameworks can be a steep learning curve. Alright if it's at work, but at home
> I guess that you'd have to be pretty motivated... Point them to the next
> stage, but start it simple.
Let me quote Turbine's first sentence on the homepage:
"Turbine is a servlet based framework that allows experienced Java
developers to quickly build secure web applications."
Key word there: "experienced". How much more clearly can I state it?
> To get back to the original start of the thread, the whole
> apache-java-jakata-xml needs more stuff like that! I have a suggestion - why
> not set up a form which would allow people like Basil Bourque to post
> anonymous links to tutorial pages - and indeed anything they want concerning
> the technologies being developed. Have a page which displays all these links.
Sigh...I did provide a solution. That is why I wrote the Jyve FAQ system.
-jon
--
http://scarab.tigris.org/ | http://noodle.tigris.org/
http://java.apache.org/ | http://java.apache.org/turbine/
http://www.working-dogs.com/ | http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/
http://www.collab.net/ | http://www.sourcexchange.com/
--
------------------------------------------------------------
To subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Archives and Other: <http://java.apache.org/main/mail.html>
Problems?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
