Hi all,
Thanks very much for the illuminating replies, it’s a great help. To summarise (and to make sure I’ve understood): * NRTL approval legally required for selling in the USA? No. * NRTL / UL approval expected? Highly likely. * NRTL approval required for use in the workplace? Yes, not legally required but market expectation? Or is it a legal requirement? * Standard used: UL 62368-1 @Pete Perkins: are you saying when the LVD was recast that they tried to remove the lower voltage limit? Presumably this didn’t happen because companies didn’t want the extra workload involved with extra testing / assessment? Having looked at EN 62368-1, there’s not a great deal in there that applies to a low power device such as a USB powered keyboard so I think it’s fair to say that the type approval wouldn’t take a great deal of time / cost. Reading http://www.productapprovals.co.uk/ul-approval.html there appear to be initial and regular factory inspections associated with a NRTL listing, with the figure of a few thousand dollars being quoted as a typical fee for maintaining an NRTL mark. Does this match people’s experience? If the factory already has NRTL approval for manufacturing another product, could one piggyback onto this approval or is it on a per product basis? Thanks again James From: Pete Perkins <00000061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> Sent: 19 June 2018 00:27 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] UL Listing of Computer Keyboard Dave, et al, I think that you are simplifying the discussion too much. Certainly a wall-wart with an ELV output is not an electric shock hazard but that is no guarantee that any NRTL wall-wart power supply will not start a fire in any device which it powers; that can only be determined by inspection and testing. James, is your keyboard wireless? The EU has long had an ELV exclusion for equipment under the LVD. But, because of the issue raised here, there was an effort to remove that in the last update to the LVD which, unfortunately, failed. So a partial fix is that if a device has a radio in it must meet the Radio Equipment Directive and that RED Directive encompasses all of the hazards such that the electrical safety standards used under the LVD now apply except that the ELV exclusion is eliminated; a step in the right direction, I believe. (So the LVD is not invoked of itself when meeting the RED directive but the appropriate safety standard is.) Now it is obvious why Rich Nute’s Bluetooth mouse bears appropriate safety marks. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 IEEE Life Fellow <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org From: Nyffenegger, Dave <dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com <mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com> > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 1:15 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] UL Listing of Computer Keyboard This is generally true however there are plenty of examples of products for sale as well as those used in the workplace that are simple in nature and/or non-hazardous and do not carry an NRTL mark. For example, the stapler on your desk or even the phone on your desk. If it plugs into a power outlet in the wall it needs NRTL. A computer keyboard could have one but is it really needed? The main reason a lot of OEMs use wall warts is they NRTL certify the wall wart (or more likely source one from another OEM) but not the product that it supplies power to as it doesn’t need it. -Dave From: Monrad Monsen [mailto:monrad.mon...@oracle.com] Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 12:02 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] UL Listing of Computer Keyboard Hi James, Please note that the OSHA Nationally Recognized Test Laboratory (NRTL) will verify your product to UL62368-1 standard (based on international IEC62368-1). The OSHA regulation mandates that employers provide a safe working environment for employees (and local building codes support those requirements) plus retail stores don’t want to be sued for selling unsafe products if someone is harmed or property damaged, so neither employers nor retail stores will buy or re-sell a product that does not have a NRTL approval. As Darren notes, NRTL labs are not just UL but also CSA, TUV Rheinland, TUV Sud, ETL (Intertek), Nemko, etc. A full listing is at the web page below: https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html Hope this helps. Monrad Sent from my iPhone On Jun 18, 2018, at 3:03 AM, CATHERINE PEARSON <00000b0df63784fb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org <mailto:00000b0df63784fb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> > wrote: Hi James, Is UL listing mandatory for IT accessories like keyboards? No any NRTL certification will be sufficient, but that may not be the question or answer ! Depending where you are selling the equipment, they may expect a certain certification mark, Ive gotten many approvals for the USA market but its the customer who needs to understand the requirements. I had explained to my customer that they can have any suitable certification mark and it will meet the requirements, TUV, CSA, UL etc However once they were selling the device, there customer would ask "Wheres the UL mark" there customer was not technical and didn't understand or care to understand there were alternatives, just "Wheres the UL mark" Ive also found this with the building inspectors who should know better ! So for that job, nothing but UL would do. In answer to "some retailers use it as a minimum requirement for stocking your products" Yes thats correct and you dont have much chance in convincing them to do anything else. I've been discussing this with the alternative approval bodies for a while, that they need to improve the general public view of them so more people understand that UL are only one of a number of options. Ive worked with many approval bodies, some better than others, some not, but as a general rule, avoid the customer service agents and deal straight with the engineer at the testing lab and the person whos dealing with the approval. I have to mention my current experience with UL is very good, but then ive found myself a number of responsive people who reply to your Emails and are happy to discuss the project with you. 10 years ago, it was a lot different ! Regards Darren. On Monday, 18 June 2018, 9:40, James Pawson (U3C) <ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk <mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> > wrote: Hi folks, Working with a client at the moment on a computer keyboard (hence the earlier question). I’m trying to get a handle on the applicability of UL listing and could do with some help. Is UL listing mandatory for IT accessories like keyboards? My searching so far suggests that the answer is “no”. However, I’ve read that some retailers use it as a minimum requirement for stocking your products – does anyone have any experience or knowledge of this? Assuming that UL listing was required (for whatever reason, OHSA?) presumably an analysis against IEC 62368-1 would be sufficient or are there other tests/requirements? If anyone has a link to any docs with more information I’d like to do some more reading up. Thanks in advance James - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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