Agreed with both Mekius and Toma.
What Hisham said can be summarized as "now that we delayed we can
delay a bit more", this can lead to infinite, similar to "we do half,
then half of the half..."
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Toma <tomha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Spot on Mekius. If we had a 6 month roadmap and an alpha release, we'd
> have quite a bit of PR and certainly a bit of personal drive. Even
> with ewl having releases it gives me drive to try to get the new theme
> into the next major version. Im sure other devs would be energised by
> a roadmap and release.
> Toma.
>
> On 1/6/09, Nick Hughart <mek...@mekius.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 23:40:42 -0500
>> "Hisham Mardam Bey" <hisham.mardam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>>> <barbi...@profusion.mobi> wrote:
>>> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Luchezar Petkov
>>> > <luchezar.pet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>>> >> <barbi...@profusion.mobi> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I did basic categorization of enlightenment items and also remove
>>> >>> the idea to drop 16bpp engines as we'll use it in our projects.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> most showstopper atm is file manager items, I think we can do
>>> >>> without them so would flag them (all, or at least most of them)
>>> >>> as "optional".
>>> >>
>>> >> I'd disagree with you here. A nice fm is really important to the
>>> >> end users. Using external file browser is just an ugly way (imo)
>>> >> and would 1) make less experienced users ask lots of questions
>>> >> about how to deal with files when using E (and why (and how)
>>> >> should they bother installing external fm) and 2) probably distro
>>> >> packagers are going to pack E with Thunar or something and I don't
>>> >> like that. I'm aware that the fm is probably one of the hardest
>>> >> things to do in E17, but it is too important to just... not finish
>>> >> it.
>>> >
>>> > But it's mostly working for "joe-the-user". Sure, having things like
>>> > Ctrl-{x,c,v} is good, but not hard or blocking.
>>> >
>>>
>>> I would just like to point something out quickly here. We (the EFL /
>>> E17 team) have waited so long before doing a release that anything
>>> that is not "perfect and done" is going to prove exactly what a lot of
>>> the public thinks of EFL / E17; namely that its vapor ware that will
>>> never be completed. We can't afford to release anything that is half
>>> done after this extremely long time period of "working on E17".
>>
>> This is true, but it's also a misconception of the public that all this
>> time was spent just working on E17. This is hardly the case and many
>> people are already using the EFL and are mostly awaiting a release so
>> they have a stable target to develop against. E17 has been a long time
>> coming for sure, but I think people discount the amount of code that
>> has been written and the small number of dedicated developers we have.
>>
>> And the use of the term vaporware is crap as well. Vaporware doesn't
>> exist at all. E17 and the EFL both exist in a very real way and the
>> lack of a stable release doesn't change that. If all the code was
>> closed up and no one could use it, I could see people coming to this
>> conclusion. Fact is people can use E17 because we have "released" it via
>> CVS/SVN. Anyone who calls it vaporware is a moron.
>>
>>>
>>> Had we done smaller incremental releases we could have afforded to
>>> introduce incomplete features every now and then, right now, I
>>> personally think we should take that bit of extra time to really
>>> finish and polish anything that is incomplete or simply exclude it
>>> from the release plan and release it afterward as an E17.1 or E17.2.
>>>
>>
>> This is true. People may have been more willing to accept bugs and
>> such, but it would have also put us in a position of offering a lot
>> more documentation and support for users who couldn't debug to save
>> their life, let alone explain their issue clear enough. By "releasing"
>> a development version via a source repository you attempt to attract
>> more developers then users so you can free yourself from answering user
>> questions 24/7. Of course a lot of users have started using E17 and
>> that's fine, but they hopefully realize that what they are using is not
>> finished. People packaging doesn't help that, but we can at least
>> focus more on development then support.
>>
>> Now with that said, an initial release will be good as soon as most of
>> the bugs are ironed out. Feature wise I think we can sacrifice some of
>> the more advanced and difficult to implement features for the initial
>> release. For the release, we will need more documentation, tutorials,
>> etc. It will also require some form of support, but the long time
>> CVS/SVN users can help with that hopefully.
>>
>> In any case, I think the biggest thing a release will do is generate a
>> bit of PR for E and hopefully bring a new rush of developers/users who
>> are willing and able to help out wherever they can. If anything we will
>> have a release that can be packaged and users can easily install. This
>> will lower the amount of build questions that seem to consume so much
>> of our support time now. So this could be very good for everyone, but
>> like you said, we need to make sure it's pretty damn good or the
>> backlash could be brutal. Even if we do make a quality release, I
>> expect a lot of crap flinging from all angles just because people like
>> to hate beautiful things :)
>>
>>
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--
Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
http://profusion.mobi embedded systems
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