On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:06:38 -0200 "Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri"
<barbi...@profusion.mobi> babbled:
actually what hisham said was:
"we've taken this long. people will expect something good out of that much time
spent. if we rush things now just to slap out a release with stuff missing or
done badly or buggy - we will be ridiculed for having produced such a pile of
crap after so long. so let's not cut corners just to save a few weeks - do it
right - as in the scheme of things... its not that much time considering how
long it's been".
> Agreed with both Mekius and Toma.
>
> What Hisham said can be summarized as "now that we delayed we can
> delay a bit more", this can lead to infinite, similar to "we do half,
> then half of the half..."
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Toma <tomha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Spot on Mekius. If we had a 6 month roadmap and an alpha release, we'd
> > have quite a bit of PR and certainly a bit of personal drive. Even
> > with ewl having releases it gives me drive to try to get the new theme
> > into the next major version. Im sure other devs would be energised by
> > a roadmap and release.
> > Toma.
> >
> > On 1/6/09, Nick Hughart <mek...@mekius.net> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 23:40:42 -0500
> >> "Hisham Mardam Bey" <hisham.mardam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> >>> <barbi...@profusion.mobi> wrote:
> >>> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Luchezar Petkov
> >>> > <luchezar.pet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> >>> >> <barbi...@profusion.mobi> wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I did basic categorization of enlightenment items and also remove
> >>> >>> the idea to drop 16bpp engines as we'll use it in our projects.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> most showstopper atm is file manager items, I think we can do
> >>> >>> without them so would flag them (all, or at least most of them)
> >>> >>> as "optional".
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I'd disagree with you here. A nice fm is really important to the
> >>> >> end users. Using external file browser is just an ugly way (imo)
> >>> >> and would 1) make less experienced users ask lots of questions
> >>> >> about how to deal with files when using E (and why (and how)
> >>> >> should they bother installing external fm) and 2) probably distro
> >>> >> packagers are going to pack E with Thunar or something and I don't
> >>> >> like that. I'm aware that the fm is probably one of the hardest
> >>> >> things to do in E17, but it is too important to just... not finish
> >>> >> it.
> >>> >
> >>> > But it's mostly working for "joe-the-user". Sure, having things like
> >>> > Ctrl-{x,c,v} is good, but not hard or blocking.
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> I would just like to point something out quickly here. We (the EFL /
> >>> E17 team) have waited so long before doing a release that anything
> >>> that is not "perfect and done" is going to prove exactly what a lot of
> >>> the public thinks of EFL / E17; namely that its vapor ware that will
> >>> never be completed. We can't afford to release anything that is half
> >>> done after this extremely long time period of "working on E17".
> >>
> >> This is true, but it's also a misconception of the public that all this
> >> time was spent just working on E17. This is hardly the case and many
> >> people are already using the EFL and are mostly awaiting a release so
> >> they have a stable target to develop against. E17 has been a long time
> >> coming for sure, but I think people discount the amount of code that
> >> has been written and the small number of dedicated developers we have.
> >>
> >> And the use of the term vaporware is crap as well. Vaporware doesn't
> >> exist at all. E17 and the EFL both exist in a very real way and the
> >> lack of a stable release doesn't change that. If all the code was
> >> closed up and no one could use it, I could see people coming to this
> >> conclusion. Fact is people can use E17 because we have "released" it via
> >> CVS/SVN. Anyone who calls it vaporware is a moron.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Had we done smaller incremental releases we could have afforded to
> >>> introduce incomplete features every now and then, right now, I
> >>> personally think we should take that bit of extra time to really
> >>> finish and polish anything that is incomplete or simply exclude it
> >>> from the release plan and release it afterward as an E17.1 or E17.2.
> >>>
> >>
> >> This is true. People may have been more willing to accept bugs and
> >> such, but it would have also put us in a position of offering a lot
> >> more documentation and support for users who couldn't debug to save
> >> their life, let alone explain their issue clear enough. By "releasing"
> >> a development version via a source repository you attempt to attract
> >> more developers then users so you can free yourself from answering user
> >> questions 24/7. Of course a lot of users have started using E17 and
> >> that's fine, but they hopefully realize that what they are using is not
> >> finished. People packaging doesn't help that, but we can at least
> >> focus more on development then support.
> >>
> >> Now with that said, an initial release will be good as soon as most of
> >> the bugs are ironed out. Feature wise I think we can sacrifice some of
> >> the more advanced and difficult to implement features for the initial
> >> release. For the release, we will need more documentation, tutorials,
> >> etc. It will also require some form of support, but the long time
> >> CVS/SVN users can help with that hopefully.
> >>
> >> In any case, I think the biggest thing a release will do is generate a
> >> bit of PR for E and hopefully bring a new rush of developers/users who
> >> are willing and able to help out wherever they can. If anything we will
> >> have a release that can be packaged and users can easily install. This
> >> will lower the amount of build questions that seem to consume so much
> >> of our support time now. So this could be very good for everyone, but
> >> like you said, we need to make sure it's pretty damn good or the
> >> backlash could be brutal. Even if we do make a quality release, I
> >> expect a lot of crap flinging from all angles just because people like
> >> to hate beautiful things :)
> >>
> >>
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>
>
> --
> Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> http://profusion.mobi embedded systems
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