On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:42 PM, Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:15:56 -0400 Youness Alaoui > <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said: > > > Yeah yeah, you've made that pretty clear already, the thing is, we give > > reasons why this would be better, but your only argument is "because I > > don't want to" > > that list there on the release page was a result of a group of e devs > getting > together at cebit and refining the existing more vague list. it was not > just > me. i was there. > Alright, if that TODO was a group effort, then my apologies on the specific parts where I stated "your todo". I'd like to point out though that when I said that, I wasn't just referring to "you wrote it", but rather on "you decided what to put in it, those who disagreed got ignored". You always seem to have the final word, and that's why I consider it your todo. But yes, I was not there, so I cannot know, so againt, just a hypothesis. > > > how will it encourage people to not finish things? and what it will > > achieve? well I thought it was pretty obvious, but since you need me to > > spell it out for you : > > - You need a feature freeze in svn before releasing > > - You need to fix bugs between feature freeze and release > > - You need an alpha release to get bugreports on what needs to be fixed > > before the release. > > and yes i need to > Sorry, this seems unclear, "yes I need to"? what do you mean? yes you need me to spell it out? or yes, you need those 3 things I listed == an alpha is needed ? > > > It doesn't matter that they are at the same time, what does matter is to > > have a fixed date for it. I said at the same time as efl 1.1 because > cedric > > suggested that (at the conference). And this isn't a "sudden desire", > it's > > a desire that's been there for years, you just don't want to see it. You > > need time to rest post efl 1.1 release, fine, but set a reasonable date. > > why does it have to BE A FIXED DATE? why do i have to repeat this question > - > what is so MAGIC about that date. i s > The date itself is not magic, we're not saying december 25th, or january 1st, or whatever other 'special dates'. But what will A DATE create is a deadline, and the deadline in itself will drive the development. Not everyone works like that, for sure, but I believe that most people will get more shit done if they have a deadline rather than "whenever you can". And I've experienced this so many times.. no commits for 6 months on amsn, then we say "we'll release next week, start building packages" then 100 or 200 commits get sent in that single week (seriously). A deadline is a motivational factor and you don't seem to get it. But more than that, a fixed date will force a release, and without that, it's like a "it will never happen" kind of deal. Get it out, then concentrate on the next release, then iterate. > > you are tired of the rudeness? well sorry about that! And I'm also pretty > > fucking tired of your condescending arrogant bullshit! Yeah yeah, I'm the > > new guy, I'm just a user, I haven't contributed anything worthy, so I > > should shut up, but you know what, I still have a voice, and I've heard > so > > many 'rumors' about you, but now I believe them after I've actually > > experienced the rasterman ever since I joined. You talk in a > condescending > > manner, you are arrogant, and you piss pretty much everybody off, I don't > > know how e17 lasted this long with you driving away everyone.. oh wait, > > yeah, people did leave the team, and maybe if you weren't being the > > dictator that you're trying to be, the community would be much much much > > larger. > > I have a lot of respect for your work, you definitely have a lot of > skills > > that very few people have, but this does not mean you can be a tyrant > > dictator and do whatever you want, ignoring everyone's opinions. I > > understand E is basically your baby, and for sure your word is important > > but you need to listen to what people tell you and stop being so fucking > > stubborn (and I'm not saying this just about this thread btw)! > > While I'm on the subject, like what Gustavo said, someone emails and says > > he wants to help with something and all you could answer him is that > he'll > > fail, how stupid is that? is that how you build a community ? you are > > if it's the website? then yes - i said that, as i've seen it happen before > - > several times. from memory he wanted to tear down the current site and > rebuild > and i said "don't do that - it will go like others - it'll end up half > done and > we have a half done site then others are left to pick up and fix again. do > it > in parallel and when it's ready, we can shift over". you are indeed new. > you > may think it's all roses. over the decade+ i have many times relied on > people > who said "i will do X". be that the website, or a piece of code, and > countless > times they vanish, never do it, do a tiny bit and give up, and then i, or > others, are left holding the bag going "so.. where is it?". we were > expecting > it. it didn't happen. or the quality of what was done was so poor or > half-done > it was scrapped and redone. something like the website - i'm not going to > have > someone redo it live with the existing one torn down. > You're not the only project leader here, I've been leading the aMSN project (which I know, is quite a lot smaller than what you guys are doing) and I've dealt with the exact same situation, but I've never pushed away people, it's about "being nice", there was even a guy with motivation but who barely knew how to do a hello world, I encouraged him and helped him and wrote 200 pages reviews for his 10 lines patches, then eventually, it helped me and he's now part of the team and taking care of important features. Also, it doesn't matter if it will fail, yes, you were disappointed by 10 other guys, but this one guy that just came in, what did he do ? he does deserve the same chance as the first guy, why let out "your anger/frustration/deception" on him? I haven't seen that thread, so I don't know what you said exactly, so obviously, I can't judge on how you said it, but there is a way to talk to people to encourage them and to welcome them into your community that I have not seen from you yet. > > poisoning it from the inside, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one > who > > thinks that (I actually know I'm not), but I always speak my mind, I'm > not > > scared of you or scared of hurting your feelings, while I respect, I > won't > > hold out on my thoughts just out of that respect, so I don't know if > others > > here already told you what I've just said, or maybe they tried to be more > > subtle about it and you didn't udnerstand it, or maybe they did and you > > ignored it, or maybe they simply didn't out of fear/respect, or the usual > > "oh he's like that, let him".. but I needed to get that off my chest. > (and > > yes, before I get flooded with responses, I'm not saying everyone here > > would agree with what I said, but I know at least a few who would). > > You say I'm being rude because I dare open my mouth without doing any of > > the work you want.. well I've wanted to help, but everytime it seems I > lose > > then you are doing what i already saw. you are wanting to have those who > want > to finish the todo list march to your tune of release, regardless of > quality and > completeness. all the people asking for release are all "demotivated" and > "not > helping". what makes me think they will help to fix bugs in alpha? or > finish > features during alpha? > No, I don't, I don't want to force my view on you, just as much as I don't want to have your view forced on us. This is a discussion thread, it is so we can discuss and come to an understanding and what pissed me off is that there was no discussion, only rejection. I also saw the IRC chat where Gustavo was talking to you then you just said you're tired of this discussion and you just left the channel, and left him talking to himself!! That is incredibly rude and pisses off people and quite frankly, it drives people away. We want to discuss and you want "my way or the highway". As for "regardless of quality and completeness", no, I never said that, I said a release cycle must be created, Gustavo said "release as-is" and I said no, I said to set a date, and work to finish the todo by that date, I never said to throw it all out, I said to finish the todo by that date. What I did say that you don't seem to agree with is that if one of the todo items can't be done by that time, then it is not critical, it's not a deal breaker and we should continue with the release and just drop that feature to the next release. As for quality, you'd still get one month after the feature freeze to fix any pending bugs, knowing quite well that as is, svn is already pretty good quality. > > > my motivation, I swear I could have started working on that TODO right > now, > > but every time I read an email from you, I get tired of that arrogance > and > > just want to say "fuck it".. If I ask something or suggest something, you > > always answer like you're the all knowing God and I'm just a stupid > little > > ant, so yeah, I'm not going to code for you, I'm not going to boost your > > no - you're going to code because you want a release. but nothing you have > said or done makes me think you'll want to do anything but want to tell me > and > others what to do without doing as well. i'm just sticking to the goals > that > were already written up and agreed on. > No, people work on what motivates them, they work on what they want. Sure they want a release, but with the current situation, it seems like it will never happen, so people don't invest time on something that may seem like it won't exist. Having a release schedule, a date, makes it a reality. And no, I don't want to tell you what to do, I want to share my thoughts with you, have a discussion and maybe end up with something that will advance the project. This isn't code, but it is still helping the project. Good planning is a part of it. As for the code, like I said about 10 times now I think : make the release a reality and the code will be written before the deadline is reached, otherwise, there is no motivation to do it.. that's just human nature. > > > ego by falling in line and following your orders, I'm not your stupid > > little soldier who is braindead and needs your guidance in this world. > > Maybe that's why people don't do any of the code you'd like them to do.. > > And for your information, I'm not "not helping", you need to realize > that I > > am, by this very thread, by this very discussion, I am wasting my time to > > share my thoughts and help the project in a way I feel is useful. If you > > think that 'work' and 'help' can only be quantified by number of lines of > > code written or number of TODO items fixed, then you're wrong. But then > > again, of course, since you know everything and everyone's opinions are > > just a big pile of crap, so sure, you ignore everything the others say, > so > > in the end, we're not helping. > > I may be harsh in what I just said, but I'm not politician, I'm not gonna > > sugarcoat it, especially since yourself don't even care enough to > sugarcoat > > whatever crap you say to others. > > Oh, and you should probably read this, I think it's talking about you : > > http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project > > you might want to look in the mirror once in a while. > I can't, it breaks everytime I try... And yes, I know that I sounded like a jerk in that mail, and yes, I was pissed, the difference between you and me (I believe) is that I react to rude people by unleashing my inhibitions, while you seem to act like a jerk for the start. Like I said, I know it sounded harsh, but I believe you needed to hear it like that. One of the devs told me "maybe he needs the electro shock treatment to realize how he acts with others", and another told me "it was violent, but true". And I asked for their opinion before sending it, as I did not want to say anything that was untrue (although truth here is subjective since it's about how you appear to others with your actions), so I wanted confirmation from devs who have worked with you for a longer time than me. So yeah.. I don't think I need to look in the mirror because I know exactly how much of a dick I sounded when I wrote that, but don't brush off what I said so easily, because it doesn't look like you realize it when you are being a dick. > > > > previous discussions) is to get a point across, the release is > needed, > > > and > > > > most people think that there is no point in delaying it, but if > you're > > > too > > > > stubborn on that, maybe that's the reason no release was ever made, > not > > > > about people not contributing (which btw, seeing how you sometimes > answer > > > > aggressively, it might actually have scared away contributors). > > > > > > check history before you speculate on it. there has always been a todo > > > list - > > > it has fluctuated over time but broadly has had all the same content. > > > reality > > > is that it isn't released because people were not helping to make it > > > happen. > > > > > > let's just deal with the most recent stuff - the release wiki page. i > > > suggest u > > > check its history in trac. e17 release is awaiting that. yes - i veto > the > > > release until that is done. so hold all your arguments EXCEPT about the > > > todo > > > list itself. that means either do stuff or convince me to nuke it from > the > > > list. > > > > Why do you get to veto? Why isn't it a vote? We've given you valid > reasons > > to not do it that way, but you have no reasons to stick to the TODO other > > than your veto and because you want it that way. > > 1. i get a veto because i started this project. i've given up countless > tens of thousands of hours on it over the years. > 2. that list was a result of the following people meeting and agreeing on > that > list at cebit. the guys at cebit were: me, tasn, discomfitor, jeffdameth, > t_unix, seoz, hermet, stefan... and others from memory. > > you know why i'm annoyed? it is the "prague committee" that now wishes to > assert dominance and dictate what will be done. if the members were going > to do > something to make it happen - i'd be listening. right now it's empty words > - in > fact it's all "i'm too demotivated to work on e so just do a release and > maybe > i'll think about working on it". > 1. everybody recognizes your work, I even ackownledged E being your baby in my previous monologue, and we all know how much time and effort you spent on it. However, I don't agree that it gives you a veto. I've been project leader and while I probably did 75% of the project (Boris, feel free to contradict me if I'm wrong), I have still never ever forced my opinion on others. I try to convince them by giving them logical reasons, if I can't convince others, then maybe I'm wrong, if it's a matter of personal opinion, then I start a poll where everyone's votes are equal (me, admins, other devs and even users). The day you force your way is the day you become a dictator, and that's the day you start putting the respect people had for you in the balance and alienate people. 2. alright, already discussed above. There is no "prague community", this was discussed a few times before prague, we just had a chance to discuss it live and figure out some of the details when we were in prague.. it annoys you? ok! But what if you were there? you would have listened and agreed? or you would have said "no, I disagree, don't want to hear about it, I want it this way so it has to stay this way, good bye" ? About the rest of your paragraph, no, there is no "I'm too demotivated to work on it, so just release".. there is a "I'm demotivated when I'm being ridiculed by raster" (that's me saying it) and there's "we need a proper release cycle, a release manager, a plan, dates, etc.." Cedric said you tried to do a feature freeze before but it didn't work out because people got stuff done and were tired of not being able to commit it.. then he said the feature freeze was 4 months.. THAT is a problem.. it's too long for sure.. if you had specific dates and a proper duration for the feature freeze and proper branching, then it would have worked. > > > > > to everyone debating e17 release - get off your butts and do the > todo > > > > > list. if > > > > > you actually DID this... it'd have been done long ago. > > > > > > > > > Still missing the point, the TODO list is not the blocker, it seems > to be > > > > you and your decision. The release can be made now, the TODO list is > > > > irrelevant. > > > > > > thats a load of horse dung. the TODO list is the list of things to do > FOR a > > > release. thus very simply - the release is blocked by the todo list. > i'm > > > sorry > > > - i'm not in the school of thought that thinks u just crank out a > release > > > every > > > N weeks/months just because a date rolls around. > > > > > > > And you're too stubborn to understand that the release should NOT be > > blocked by the todo list, and "that's a load of horse dung" is not a > valid > > reason.. and you not being in whatever school of thought is not a valid > > reason either. > > so by your position - i could release e if date X rolled around and all it > did > was move windows. you couldn't close them resize them, raise or lower > them... > just move. just because that's all that was working by date X? > No, I am having this discussion with you now because E as it is now is more than moving windows around. I definitely agree that there must be an initial set of features, and I agree those in the TODO (some at least) are important, what I disagree with is "let's do it.. whenever".. and all I've been preaching is that those features WILL be fixed by date X (they have to) and even if they are not, while they are important, they are not a deal breaker. > > > > > I tried to compromise, I tried to come up with a solution that would > make > > > > everyone happy but you simply ignored it. I didn't write a long > email to > > > > explain things just to have 99% of it ignored. > > > > > > the todo list already is a compromise. now the goal is to throw it out > > > entirely > > > (pretty much). that's not a compromise. nowhere near it. > > > > > the todo list is already a compromise? how is it a compromise? is it > > because it represents what the almight Carsten feels should be done and > he > > has taken the time to write it up for us mere mortals instead of keeping > > the thought of "God's plan is unknown to men" > > no - it's because it was a result of several people getting together and > agreeing. what i've been doing is going through that list - in many cases > doing > things other people had on the todo list. yes - you're new and you have no > clue > about where that list came from and who put items onto it and why. that tod > list before it hit the wiki had more items on it that i argued against > with the > people there, to keep the size down. > Oh ok, but then the todo list is a compromise on features, but we are talking here about the release cycle/system/planning/whatever.. having a todo list is good, having no plans other than "fix the todo" is not good. > > > > > Assign a release manager, set specific dates for feature freezes > (which > > > > would come with a release candidate) and specific dates for > releases. Do > > > an > > > > alpha at the same time as the efl 1.1 (NO MATTER WHAT) and get that > out > > > of > > > > the door, it's in 3 weeks? then you got 3 weeks to do these little > new > > > > features you want ('you' being anyone who wants to contribute of > course), > > > > > > i'm 100% busy and solid with efl for these 3 weeks - so hell no. > > > > > so why did you previously say "in weeks" when it was said that they'd be > > fixed in months? so that means it will still not be fixed in months... > > 8 weeks is weeks to me. 20 weeks is months. 3 weeks is weeks. 6 weeks is > weeks. > after efl 1.1 is done then we can focus on e17. > Ok, so it's between 3 weeks and 8 ? in that case, how about you set the date to 8 weeks from now? I suggested at the same time as efl 1.1, you disagreed and actually gave a reason as to why it won't work, and I agree, so I asked for a later date, and you still refuse. Why not make it 8 weeks from now ? Set the date, do your planning, then let the work begin. I haven't seen any argumentation against doing that. > > > > > and you said youself it's a matter of weeks, so prove it. If it > can't be > > > > done in the next 3 weeks, then it will never be done. Then after > that, > > > you > > > > got 1 month to iron out any bugs reported and make the whole > (including > > > the > > > > new, somewhat buggy, features added right before the alpha release) > thing > > > > more stable, then release 1 month later! If there are still pending > bugs > > > by > > > > that time, then too bad, you missed the window, next release will > have > > > > those bugs fixed. > > > > > > an e17 alpha comes out __AFTER__ efl 1.1 is out. date is not set yet. > > > > > I don't mind that, but the date must be set. > > jan 1 2020. happy? > That's more than weeks... > > > > > > fyi - that todo list was decided because those items were deemed > TO be > > > > > critical enough to stall a release. even YOU are crying out for > > > multimon > > > > > config! you don't even give a consistent stance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, they WERE deemed critical, now I think what is actually > critical is > > > to > > > > have a release, it's time to revisit with the current situation what > is > > > > actually deemed critical. I gave my opinion above about them. > > > > > > i disagree. > > > > > great argumentation, thanks, now I understand better your reasons. > > your argument is about as good. those items are there BECAUSE PEOPLE KEEP > ASKING. on irc, email. forums. etc. they want to know "how do i make my 2nd > screen work in e?" "why doesn't it restore my resolution on login?" "how > do i > switch tasks?" (because they work by maximizing all windows all the time > and > thus can't find them without a taskbar), "my sound doesn't work - and the > mixer > doesn't help!" "how can i change my keyboard to russian?" etc. etc. etc. - > repeatedly over the years. > Yes, people need it, yes people keep asking, I'm not saying people don't need it, I'm saying that those who need it can wait for e 17.1 (which would be released 3 months later)... and that is in the worst case scenario if those features don't get in before the feature freeze (which I doubt would happen). > > > > As for my consistency, no, I am consistent, while yes, I do want and > need > > > > multi monitor support, like I said, if it can't make it then too > bad! I > > > > prefer to see a release, to see exposure and to see the 90% of users > who > > > > may not need multimon support be happy to use E17, and the remaining > 10% > > > > also happy but somewhat annoyed and impatient to get the next release > > > that > > > > fixes their use cases. > > > > > > disagree. the reasons for needing this hasn't changed. > > > > > you have not given any argument against mine. > > history, experience. see above. multiple heads agreed. not just me. > > > > let me be very plain here. if the people insisting on a release in "1 > > > month" (or whatever - given some short timeframe) regardless of > features, > > > todo > > > list or quality are precisely the people NOT helping with the release. > > > it's all > > > armchair experts not pitching in. if you had been, if you did, the todo > > > list > > > would be long done by now and we'd have a release. if you help with the > > > release > > > then we will get what u want - a release in a short timeframe. > > > > > Oh you're very clear, we don't have a right to an opinion because our > name > > is not Carsten. And if we do have an opinion, then you don't want to hear > > it because we're not slaves enough to listen to you and shut up when you > > say something, and if we do contribute then it doesn't matter anyways > > because we should be contributing to Carsten's vision and fixing his TODO > > list. > > Well, the "armchair expert" does not WANT to help out anymore. > > that todo list is the result of a lot of history - many people, wiki pages > and > more. for a long time there was no public todo list. people kept asking "so > what can i help with?" "what will happen?" "can ewe have a roadmap?" so i > started putting TODO files in svn - people didn't seem to look there, so it > eventually migrated to the wiki page. in fact i think originally other > people > did most of that migration and they started adding items or changing the > list. > the current todo list is a refinement of a previous much much much longer > one. > > http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release > > now why don't u check the history? > > http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release?action=history > > oh dear.. look... vincent torri started that page.. not me.. then cedric, > mekius, even gustavo... and that's been going for 3 years now that release > page. > Yes yes, it's always about the TODO list.. but why don't you see that having an actual release plan does not conflict with you having a TODO list ? And even if it was, things keep changing, why would you be religiously following that list? You discussed it before and came to that list as the conclusion, why can't we have a newer discussion now and determine if the majority agrees on the critical level of the remaining items ? > what we have here is group A in project trying to impose their will on > group B. > this is NOT JUST ME. history shows that, if you care to look. believe what > you > will though if you don't. what i'm doing is saying "no - group B doesn't > tell > group A what to do. group B has a goal - if they HELPED group A they would > have > their goal". what i do see is that group B so far hasn't made any willing > moves > to show that they do want to help make the release happen. i guess i should > have just said nothing and ignored the whole thread as it's moot talk > without > people helping. > Oh God, that's where you got it all wrong.. THERE IS NO GROUPS! Why do you have to see it as group A versus B, why is it group A forcing their views on group B or vice versa? why would group A help group B? The way I see it is that there are no groups, I only see one COMMUNITY! One single group of people with similar minds and similar goals who are trying to discuss better ways to further their common goal. But you want to see it as black and white, a war (flamewar) where you must not waver against the attacker of your ideology! And you keep coming back to this "they don't help", don't you realize that this specific discussion in itself is help ? Getting a good planning for the release is important if it is to succeed. It's not just about code. As for helping with the code itself, I don't know exactly who works on what, but as far as I know, cedric and gustavo are helping with the E code necessary for the release, no ? Isn't cedric the one who said that he'll be fixing the EFM bugs from the TODO? And btw, ignoring the whole thread.. a great sign of respect, thanks! > > but it's moot talking about this. you've made your mind up already and > since i > won't accept your plans as-is without argument, i'm obviously arrogant. > even > when i said "we can probably drop the connman ui changes and do alpha when > randr, taskbar, keymap and efm items are done". that's not a compromise > even > FURTHER? i dropped 3 out of 7 items for an alpha? so obviously i'm > stubborn, > arrogant and am not listening at all or compromising. dropping 40% of the > work > to try help an alpha come out sooner? maybe you're getting all worked up > over > simply not having your position adopted as-is. maybe you need to calm down > and > actually read what i wrote - i read what you wrote. i disagree on dropping > everything (except efm). others disagreed back in march too when that todo > list > was re-hashed out based on the old one and the current state of e. > What? "you've made your mind up already"? Shouldn't I be the one to say this? I'm open to discussion, since the start I'm asking you for actual valid argumentation (other than "I don't like it").. And no, you're not arrogant because you disagree with us, you're arrogant because of the way you say that you disagree with us, and for a few other things unrelated to this specific thread. As for your compromise being dropping 40% of the todo, it just shows that you still didn't get the subject at hand here. I don't care about the todo, I care (in this thread anyways) about the release schedule, and like I said above, nothing prevents the whole todo to be finished by then.. you say it's ok to drop 3 out of 7.. ok good, then work on the top 4 items before the feature freeze (well, on the new features, as the bug items like EFM can be fixed between feature freeze and final release), but it's just about priority, you get enough time, then you can do all 7, you needed more time, then do the plan accordingly.. you could have said that all items can be dropped or none could be dropped, it changes absolutely nothing as to the current discussion (from my point of view anyways, maybe the others, like Gustavo are even disagreeing with me on this). And no, I'm getting all worked up on how you rejected the idea and most importantly how you rejected the discussion of the idea. You keep coming back to "we stick to the todo" or "you're not even helping" or "I veto it" or whatever.. then what really ticked me off is that you then tell me that I'm being rude for expressing my opinion. > you're really beginning to make this personal. > Nah, it's not, it's about the software, what was personal was me telling you how you make me (and others) feel, not in the hope of pissing you off, but in the hope of making you understand your actions, something you may not even be aware of, with the purpose to create a more stable and more peaceful community. So yeah, again, it comes back to "it's about the software", nothing personal... > -- > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ RSA® Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
