On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:15:56 -0400 Youness Alaoui <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said:
> Yeah yeah, you've made that pretty clear already, the thing is, we give > reasons why this would be better, but your only argument is "because I > don't want to" that list there on the release page was a result of a group of e devs getting together at cebit and refining the existing more vague list. it was not just me. i was there. > how will it encourage people to not finish things? and what it will > achieve? well I thought it was pretty obvious, but since you need me to > spell it out for you : > - You need a feature freeze in svn before releasing > - You need to fix bugs between feature freeze and release > - You need an alpha release to get bugreports on what needs to be fixed > before the release. and yes i need to > It doesn't matter that they are at the same time, what does matter is to > have a fixed date for it. I said at the same time as efl 1.1 because cedric > suggested that (at the conference). And this isn't a "sudden desire", it's > a desire that's been there for years, you just don't want to see it. You > need time to rest post efl 1.1 release, fine, but set a reasonable date. why does it have to BE A FIXED DATE? why do i have to repeat this question - what is so MAGIC about that date. i s > you are tired of the rudeness? well sorry about that! And I'm also pretty > fucking tired of your condescending arrogant bullshit! Yeah yeah, I'm the > new guy, I'm just a user, I haven't contributed anything worthy, so I > should shut up, but you know what, I still have a voice, and I've heard so > many 'rumors' about you, but now I believe them after I've actually > experienced the rasterman ever since I joined. You talk in a condescending > manner, you are arrogant, and you piss pretty much everybody off, I don't > know how e17 lasted this long with you driving away everyone.. oh wait, > yeah, people did leave the team, and maybe if you weren't being the > dictator that you're trying to be, the community would be much much much > larger. > I have a lot of respect for your work, you definitely have a lot of skills > that very few people have, but this does not mean you can be a tyrant > dictator and do whatever you want, ignoring everyone's opinions. I > understand E is basically your baby, and for sure your word is important > but you need to listen to what people tell you and stop being so fucking > stubborn (and I'm not saying this just about this thread btw)! > While I'm on the subject, like what Gustavo said, someone emails and says > he wants to help with something and all you could answer him is that he'll > fail, how stupid is that? is that how you build a community ? you are if it's the website? then yes - i said that, as i've seen it happen before - several times. from memory he wanted to tear down the current site and rebuild and i said "don't do that - it will go like others - it'll end up half done and we have a half done site then others are left to pick up and fix again. do it in parallel and when it's ready, we can shift over". you are indeed new. you may think it's all roses. over the decade+ i have many times relied on people who said "i will do X". be that the website, or a piece of code, and countless times they vanish, never do it, do a tiny bit and give up, and then i, or others, are left holding the bag going "so.. where is it?". we were expecting it. it didn't happen. or the quality of what was done was so poor or half-done it was scrapped and redone. something like the website - i'm not going to have someone redo it live with the existing one torn down. > poisoning it from the inside, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who > thinks that (I actually know I'm not), but I always speak my mind, I'm not > scared of you or scared of hurting your feelings, while I respect, I won't > hold out on my thoughts just out of that respect, so I don't know if others > here already told you what I've just said, or maybe they tried to be more > subtle about it and you didn't udnerstand it, or maybe they did and you > ignored it, or maybe they simply didn't out of fear/respect, or the usual > "oh he's like that, let him".. but I needed to get that off my chest. (and > yes, before I get flooded with responses, I'm not saying everyone here > would agree with what I said, but I know at least a few who would). > You say I'm being rude because I dare open my mouth without doing any of > the work you want.. well I've wanted to help, but everytime it seems I lose then you are doing what i already saw. you are wanting to have those who want to finish the todo list march to your tune of release, regardless of quality and completeness. all the people asking for release are all "demotivated" and "not helping". what makes me think they will help to fix bugs in alpha? or finish features during alpha? > my motivation, I swear I could have started working on that TODO right now, > but every time I read an email from you, I get tired of that arrogance and > just want to say "fuck it".. If I ask something or suggest something, you > always answer like you're the all knowing God and I'm just a stupid little > ant, so yeah, I'm not going to code for you, I'm not going to boost your no - you're going to code because you want a release. but nothing you have said or done makes me think you'll want to do anything but want to tell me and others what to do without doing as well. i'm just sticking to the goals that were already written up and agreed on. > ego by falling in line and following your orders, I'm not your stupid > little soldier who is braindead and needs your guidance in this world. > Maybe that's why people don't do any of the code you'd like them to do.. > And for your information, I'm not "not helping", you need to realize that I > am, by this very thread, by this very discussion, I am wasting my time to > share my thoughts and help the project in a way I feel is useful. If you > think that 'work' and 'help' can only be quantified by number of lines of > code written or number of TODO items fixed, then you're wrong. But then > again, of course, since you know everything and everyone's opinions are > just a big pile of crap, so sure, you ignore everything the others say, so > in the end, we're not helping. > I may be harsh in what I just said, but I'm not politician, I'm not gonna > sugarcoat it, especially since yourself don't even care enough to sugarcoat > whatever crap you say to others. > Oh, and you should probably read this, I think it's talking about you : > http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project you might want to look in the mirror once in a while. > > > previous discussions) is to get a point across, the release is needed, > > and > > > most people think that there is no point in delaying it, but if you're > > too > > > stubborn on that, maybe that's the reason no release was ever made, not > > > about people not contributing (which btw, seeing how you sometimes answer > > > aggressively, it might actually have scared away contributors). > > > > check history before you speculate on it. there has always been a todo > > list - > > it has fluctuated over time but broadly has had all the same content. > > reality > > is that it isn't released because people were not helping to make it > > happen. > > > > let's just deal with the most recent stuff - the release wiki page. i > > suggest u > > check its history in trac. e17 release is awaiting that. yes - i veto the > > release until that is done. so hold all your arguments EXCEPT about the > > todo > > list itself. that means either do stuff or convince me to nuke it from the > > list. > > Why do you get to veto? Why isn't it a vote? We've given you valid reasons > to not do it that way, but you have no reasons to stick to the TODO other > than your veto and because you want it that way. 1. i get a veto because i started this project. i've given up countless tens of thousands of hours on it over the years. 2. that list was a result of the following people meeting and agreeing on that list at cebit. the guys at cebit were: me, tasn, discomfitor, jeffdameth, t_unix, seoz, hermet, stefan... and others from memory. you know why i'm annoyed? it is the "prague committee" that now wishes to assert dominance and dictate what will be done. if the members were going to do something to make it happen - i'd be listening. right now it's empty words - in fact it's all "i'm too demotivated to work on e so just do a release and maybe i'll think about working on it". > > > > to everyone debating e17 release - get off your butts and do the todo > > > > list. if > > > > you actually DID this... it'd have been done long ago. > > > > > > > Still missing the point, the TODO list is not the blocker, it seems to be > > > you and your decision. The release can be made now, the TODO list is > > > irrelevant. > > > > thats a load of horse dung. the TODO list is the list of things to do FOR a > > release. thus very simply - the release is blocked by the todo list. i'm > > sorry > > - i'm not in the school of thought that thinks u just crank out a release > > every > > N weeks/months just because a date rolls around. > > > > And you're too stubborn to understand that the release should NOT be > blocked by the todo list, and "that's a load of horse dung" is not a valid > reason.. and you not being in whatever school of thought is not a valid > reason either. so by your position - i could release e if date X rolled around and all it did was move windows. you couldn't close them resize them, raise or lower them... just move. just because that's all that was working by date X? > > > I tried to compromise, I tried to come up with a solution that would make > > > everyone happy but you simply ignored it. I didn't write a long email to > > > explain things just to have 99% of it ignored. > > > > the todo list already is a compromise. now the goal is to throw it out > > entirely > > (pretty much). that's not a compromise. nowhere near it. > > > the todo list is already a compromise? how is it a compromise? is it > because it represents what the almight Carsten feels should be done and he > has taken the time to write it up for us mere mortals instead of keeping > the thought of "God's plan is unknown to men" no - it's because it was a result of several people getting together and agreeing. what i've been doing is going through that list - in many cases doing things other people had on the todo list. yes - you're new and you have no clue about where that list came from and who put items onto it and why. that tod list before it hit the wiki had more items on it that i argued against with the people there, to keep the size down. > > > Assign a release manager, set specific dates for feature freezes (which > > > would come with a release candidate) and specific dates for releases. Do > > an > > > alpha at the same time as the efl 1.1 (NO MATTER WHAT) and get that out > > of > > > the door, it's in 3 weeks? then you got 3 weeks to do these little new > > > features you want ('you' being anyone who wants to contribute of course), > > > > i'm 100% busy and solid with efl for these 3 weeks - so hell no. > > > so why did you previously say "in weeks" when it was said that they'd be > fixed in months? so that means it will still not be fixed in months... 8 weeks is weeks to me. 20 weeks is months. 3 weeks is weeks. 6 weeks is weeks. after efl 1.1 is done then we can focus on e17. > > > and you said youself it's a matter of weeks, so prove it. If it can't be > > > done in the next 3 weeks, then it will never be done. Then after that, > > you > > > got 1 month to iron out any bugs reported and make the whole (including > > the > > > new, somewhat buggy, features added right before the alpha release) thing > > > more stable, then release 1 month later! If there are still pending bugs > > by > > > that time, then too bad, you missed the window, next release will have > > > those bugs fixed. > > > > an e17 alpha comes out __AFTER__ efl 1.1 is out. date is not set yet. > > > I don't mind that, but the date must be set. jan 1 2020. happy? > > > > fyi - that todo list was decided because those items were deemed TO be > > > > critical enough to stall a release. even YOU are crying out for > > multimon > > > > config! you don't even give a consistent stance. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, they WERE deemed critical, now I think what is actually critical is > > to > > > have a release, it's time to revisit with the current situation what is > > > actually deemed critical. I gave my opinion above about them. > > > > i disagree. > > > great argumentation, thanks, now I understand better your reasons. your argument is about as good. those items are there BECAUSE PEOPLE KEEP ASKING. on irc, email. forums. etc. they want to know "how do i make my 2nd screen work in e?" "why doesn't it restore my resolution on login?" "how do i switch tasks?" (because they work by maximizing all windows all the time and thus can't find them without a taskbar), "my sound doesn't work - and the mixer doesn't help!" "how can i change my keyboard to russian?" etc. etc. etc. - repeatedly over the years. > > > As for my consistency, no, I am consistent, while yes, I do want and need > > > multi monitor support, like I said, if it can't make it then too bad! I > > > prefer to see a release, to see exposure and to see the 90% of users who > > > may not need multimon support be happy to use E17, and the remaining 10% > > > also happy but somewhat annoyed and impatient to get the next release > > that > > > fixes their use cases. > > > > disagree. the reasons for needing this hasn't changed. > > > you have not given any argument against mine. history, experience. see above. multiple heads agreed. not just me. > > let me be very plain here. if the people insisting on a release in "1 > > month" (or whatever - given some short timeframe) regardless of features, > > todo > > list or quality are precisely the people NOT helping with the release. > > it's all > > armchair experts not pitching in. if you had been, if you did, the todo > > list > > would be long done by now and we'd have a release. if you help with the > > release > > then we will get what u want - a release in a short timeframe. > > > Oh you're very clear, we don't have a right to an opinion because our name > is not Carsten. And if we do have an opinion, then you don't want to hear > it because we're not slaves enough to listen to you and shut up when you > say something, and if we do contribute then it doesn't matter anyways > because we should be contributing to Carsten's vision and fixing his TODO > list. > Well, the "armchair expert" does not WANT to help out anymore. that todo list is the result of a lot of history - many people, wiki pages and more. for a long time there was no public todo list. people kept asking "so what can i help with?" "what will happen?" "can ewe have a roadmap?" so i started putting TODO files in svn - people didn't seem to look there, so it eventually migrated to the wiki page. in fact i think originally other people did most of that migration and they started adding items or changing the list. the current todo list is a refinement of a previous much much much longer one. http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release now why don't u check the history? http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release?action=history oh dear.. look... vincent torri started that page.. not me.. then cedric, mekius, even gustavo... and that's been going for 3 years now that release page. what we have here is group A in project trying to impose their will on group B. this is NOT JUST ME. history shows that, if you care to look. believe what you will though if you don't. what i'm doing is saying "no - group B doesn't tell group A what to do. group B has a goal - if they HELPED group A they would have their goal". what i do see is that group B so far hasn't made any willing moves to show that they do want to help make the release happen. i guess i should have just said nothing and ignored the whole thread as it's moot talk without people helping. but it's moot talking about this. you've made your mind up already and since i won't accept your plans as-is without argument, i'm obviously arrogant. even when i said "we can probably drop the connman ui changes and do alpha when randr, taskbar, keymap and efm items are done". that's not a compromise even FURTHER? i dropped 3 out of 7 items for an alpha? so obviously i'm stubborn, arrogant and am not listening at all or compromising. dropping 40% of the work to try help an alpha come out sooner? maybe you're getting all worked up over simply not having your position adopted as-is. maybe you need to calm down and actually read what i wrote - i read what you wrote. i disagree on dropping everything (except efm). others disagreed back in march too when that todo list was re-hashed out based on the old one and the current state of e. you're really beginning to make this personal. -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ RSA® Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
