On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 2:00 AM, Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:12:23 +1000 David Seikel <onef...@gmail.com> said: > >> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 00:15:25 +0100 Vincent Torri >> <vincent.to...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 5:14 PM, Maxime Villard <rusty...@gmx.fr> >> > wrote: >> > > Le 17/12/2012 01:10, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) a écrit : >> > >> the reasons are many but here are some: >> > >> >> > >> 1. devs are almost all on linux... so guess what? they support the >> > >> os they work on. >> > >> 2. frankly linux has much more momentum than the bsd's (excluding >> > >> osx as you say) and that lead as i see is only increasing. >> > >> 3. the only other really "relevant" platforms are probably osx and >> > >> windows. both of these can be dealt with. yes i know about psl1ght >> > >> and many other more niche users. evil is there to fill in gaps for >> > >> windows. it can provide shm _open by opening a file on disk and >> > >> mmaping it like it already does. if there is an ability to force a >> > >> file in windows to never be flushed to disk unless memory pressure >> > >> would force it to be swapped out to the pagefile - then this is >> > >> effectively the same behaviour... except it survivies a reboot. >> > >> for osx - if there is a tmpfs that lives in ram, an shm_open can >> > >> be provided that redirects to there. i don't know if there is - no >> > >> osx. 4. for decades linux users have been at the bad end of the >> > >> stick with people simply saying "well be posix compliant! make >> > >> your own drivers" we won't support you!"... the tables are >> > >> turning. slowly - in bits and pieces. and most linux users/devs >> > >> are of the mindset of "we had to support oursevles for years... >> > >> and so we did. time you did the same". :) >> > >> >> > >> the issues on the most part can be solved. the problem is that for >> > >> the vast number of the core devs.. it's not THEIR issue (with some >> > >> exceptions - yes vincent... :) i know :)). ecore-extn was >> > >> optionally compileable before because i know it uses shm_open and >> > >> so i made it an option. it also brought in ecore-con and >> > >> ecore-ipc. these options are going away now though, so the problem >> > >> is no longer going to be avoided. cserve2 - similar story. we've >> > >> had cserve for years now and no one uses it - it was optional. >> > >> cserve2 will become mandatory because it NEEDS to be tested and >> > >> exercised en-masse. without something like cserve2 - we will bloat >> > >> out badly if people write actual efl APPS. cserve2 is there to >> > >> help contain that bloat before it begins. people are already >> > >> writing efl apps, so it solves and existing problem anyway. the >> > >> issues just need solving. in both the eore-extn code and in >> > >> cserve2, the shm_open/mmap stuff is encapsulated and easy to >> > >> replace etc. - it just has not been because of the above. the devs >> > >> all have systems that have shm_open... so its not a priority for >> > >> us and your todo lists are forever full. example. there is a case >> > >> with ecore-extn where u can easly get a lock deadlock if you use >> > >> it in a certain way. reality is people do use it that way and that >> > >> problem is by far more important to me than shm_open stuff. :) >> > > >> > > So, excepted me, nobody uses and feels concerned by BSD's ? >> > >> > they don't care about other OSs. They work exclusively on linux and >> > don't even try to think about other OSs. It implies that a port for >> > another OS than linux has to implement very bad hacks and a ton of >> > work, like i did for Windows, to try to *mimic* what is done with >> > linux. >> >> For at least one of the large projects I'm involved in, there's always >> people screaming for a Mac version. I have to patiently explain to >> them that A) I'm poor and can't afford a Mac for development. B) Apple >> wont let people do Mac development on a non Apple computer, so I can't >> legally use a VM like I do for Windows development. >> >> I dunno about Mac OSX being a "proper" BSD, but I do care about it >> enough on behalf of my users that I hope EFL stuff works there when I >> can finally afford a development Mac. I also hope that Mac and BSD are >> close enough that supporting one mostly works for the other. >> >> I care about Android, coz I think smart phones are the next >> generation. I don't care about iPhone, coz Apple makes it way to >> expensive to develop for them, and too tightly controlled. >> >> I care about Linux, coz that's my OS of choice. >> >> So I care about other OS's, even if it's a big pain in the arse. > > i think you made the point well.. caring and actually going and spending the > time/money on each and every os out there is another matter. to care and think > about it is what we do, but it's often a "well this can be solved on these > other > platforms somehow - so that's a bridge to cross when/if we get there.". > > i can't cross that bridge with windows in any easy form. it will take me an > immense amount of time to set up a development env on the only machine i have
i have written a wiki for that. One can set up a development toolchain for windows, on linux, in less than 10 minutes. Add the download of a zip file for the dependencies. One can have a complete dev env in less than 30 mn. > that has windows (dual boot), or spend money on a windows licensed copy for a > vmware setup and also spend that time... then i have to, as you mention... > buy a > mac... then i need to set up vm's to install openbsd, freebsd, netbsd, > blahblahblah... that's what i planned to do on my new computer. And that's what i have already done (windows and solaris) on my old computer. If I have done it, why other devs didn't ? Note, raster, that i don't ask *you* do it, Vincent > and each and every one i have to read up on, adapt to, set up a > development environment and so on - and this all costs a MOUNTAIN of time. i > have no spare time as-is. i am "time poor". hell - i'm like a homeless begger > when it comes to time. i spend EVERY WEEKEND WORKING ON E and EFL. every day > during the week. i barely get enough sleep. on weekends my only interruptions > are some shopping for things i need and the odd social thing with my gf. and > this is the case every week of the year almost without exception. every day of > the week, i wake up - do email, fix svn issues, spend > 1hr commuting to work > (and back home). i spend all day at work... other than that i just eat and > sleep. i have no time already. > > where do i find them time to install/adapt to and learn half a dozen new os's? > that's why there is a community. that's why it's thought about to the point of > "can be solved" and then left up to the people who already have done that os > adaption to do the solving, as they have the build environments and actual os > there and working. they know it already. if you expect us to do everything for > you - then be prepared for e and efl to move much more slowly. > > -- > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial > Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support > Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add services > Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers > http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add services Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
