Three clauses of constitutional law should do it : 1) Value shall legally exist in civil law only to the extent that the applicable wealth tax was paid in advance of the legal issue. 2) Value shall exist in criminal cases as specified by applicable laws and regulations. 3) There shall be no taxation of economic activity, and usage fees shall be appropriate for expenses incurred by government entities.
So how about that? Lonnie Courtney Clay On Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:51:08 AM UTC-7, nominal9 wrote: > > Hi Lonnie....I'll accept you option to "tax wealth".....can you explain > "how" and "what" such a set of taxes would look like?.....cure my > ignorance... I will not mind at all.....really. > Here's another article, below... that follows up on the general notion of > world-wide economic malaise..... > > http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/G-20-countries-pledge-stronger-efforts-4447038.php > > WASHINGTON (AP) — World finance leaders are pledging to pursue further > actions to bolster a disappointingly weak global recovery. They also > reaffirmed their commitment to avoid using their currencies as an economic > weapon to gain unfair advantage in foreign trade. > > Finance ministers and central bank presidents from the leading rich and > developing nations, or Group of 20, wrapped up two days of talks Friday > with a joint statement that said they had managed to avoid some of the > biggest economic threats, but growth was still too weak in many countries > and unemployment too high. > > The joint statement revealed no major new policy initiatives but did urge > the United States and some other countries to emphasize efforts to > jump-start growth even if that meant less emphasis on deficit reduction in > the near term. > > "Further actions are required to make growth strong, sustainable and > balanced," the G-20 said in their joint statement. > > The United States was represented at the talks by Treasury Secretary Jacob > Lew<http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fpolitics&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Jacob+Lew%22>, > > who was attending his first G-20 meeting since taking office in late > February, and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke. The discussions were > led by Russian Finance Minister Anton > Siluanov<http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fpolitics&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Anton+Siluanov%22>whose > country is leading the G-20 this year. > > The G-20 joint statement singled out the recent aggressive credit-easing > moves pushed by Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo > Abe<http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fpolitics&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Shinzo+Abe%22>, > > saying they were intended to stop prolonged deflation and support > domestic demand. > > Those comments were viewed as giving a green-light to Japan's program, > which has driven the value of the yen down by more than 20 percent against > the dollar since October. That sizable decline has raised concerns among > U.S. manufacturing firms that Japan's real goal is not to fight deflation, > a destabilizing period of falling prices, but to weaken the yen as a way to > gaining trade advantages. > > To address those concerns, the G-20 did repeat language it used in > February that all countries should not use their currency as a trade weapon > and guard against policies that could trigger currency wars. > > Japanese officials told reporters following the discussions that they were > pleased by the support the G-20 had given them to pursue growth policies in > an effort to lift the world's third largest economy out of its > two-decade slump. > > Haruhiko > Kuroda<http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fpolitics&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Haruhiko+Kuroda%22>, > > head of the Bank of > Japan<http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fpolitics&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Bank+of+Japan%22>, > > said that Japan would continue with its monetary easing policies which he > said were aimed at stimulating domestic growth and fighting deflation and > not an effort to gain trade advantages. > > "There has been international understanding and acceptance of this so we > can have further confidence to appropriately conduct monetary policy," he > told reporters at a briefing after the G-20 talks ended. > > Siluanov told reporters at a news conference that the group did not spend > as much time discussing currency issues as they had in February. > > The United States had sought to get a strong endorsement of the need to > emphasize growth, given the weakness of the global economy, rather than > trying to achieve quick progress on cutting deficits. > > However, other nations, led by Germany, have resisted a move away from > austerity programs, saying it is critical to keep making progress in > getting government deficits under control. > > German Finance Minister Wolfgang > Schaeuble<http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fpolitics&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Wolfgang+Schaeuble%22>apologized > to a Washington audience for being late for a speech after the > G-20 discussions, saying, "on reduction of indebtedness ... we have a > little bit of differences of opinion all over the world, to be very frank, > and that's the reason I am a little bit late." > > Schaeuble said the German position remains that "if you promise to deliver > only immediately on growth, you will only create the next bubble" in > asset prices. > > The G-20 talks came in advance of meetings of the steering committees of > the 188-nation International Monetary > Fund<http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fpolitics&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22International+Monetary+Fund%22>and > its sister organization, the World > Bank<http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fpolitics&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22World+Bank%22>. > > Those talks began Friday and were scheduled to conclude on Saturday. > > "Strengthening global demand is imperative and must be at the top of our > agenda," Lew said in remarks Friday before the IMF panel. "Stronger demand > in Europe is critical to global growth." > > The G-20 statement said that there was an urgent need for the 17-nation > euro currency area to move towards a banking union and reduce the > "financial fragmentation" that now exists. > > Canadian Finance Minister Jim > Flaherty<http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fpolitics&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Jim+Flaherty%22>said > that the G-20 countries remain committed to setting hard targets for > reducing debt to a certain percentage of the economy, an idea first raised > at an economic summit in Toronto in 2010. He said the issue would be > explored more when leaders of the G-20 countries hold their summit in > Russia in September. > > However, Siluanov told reporters he did not believe there was widespread > support for setting hard deficit targets. > > G-20 leaders in 2010 had agreed on a goal of reducing their annual budget > deficits by half. Siluanov said Friday that many countries support taking a > more flexible approach, particularly if a country's economy has slowed. > Slower growth can make it harder for a country to cut a budget gap. > > The communique said that "more needs to be done to address the issues of > international tax avoidance and evasion in particular through havens." The > financial crisis that hit the Mediterranean island of Cyprus earlier this > year revived concern over countries that serve as tax havens. > > In Cyprus, banks held more than $162 billion in assets or roughly seven > times the country's total GDP. Much of that money came from wealthy > Russian investors. > > ___ > > Associated Press writers Harry > Dunphy<http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fpolitics&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Harry+Dunphy%22>, > > Matthew > Pennington<http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fpolitics&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Matthew+Pennington%22>and > Desmond > Butler<http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fpolitics&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Desmond+Butler%22>contributed > to this report. > > Read more: > http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/G-20-countries-pledge-stronger-efforts-4447038.php#ixzz2R1V1WhsP > > > On Saturday, April 20, 2013 12:41:43 PM UTC-4, Lonnie Clay wrote: >> >> I don't consider wealth as filthy. To get the same amount of money as all >> of the taxes on economic activity combined would require a tax rate of >> about 3% on wealth. Which is why I say tax wealth not economic activity. >> Any student of control theory will tell you that you put the feedback >> controls on outputs of integrators, not on the inputs. Wealth is the >> cumulative result of economic activity... >> >> Lonnie Courtney Clay >> >> >> On Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:33:41 AM UTC-7, nominal9 wrote: >>> >>> >>> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-19/u-k-s-top-credit-grade-cut-by-fitch-on-economy-fiscal-outlook.html >>> >>> I read the above about British Credit Rating drop....Below is what >>> "they" say about Germany's >>> >>> >>> http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/article/3350/moodys-warns-on-german-economic-growth >>> >>> I wonder what "they" will have to say about the U.S. Govt....... when >>> they get to it again.... >>> >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_credit-rating_downgrade >>> >>> >>> I am NOT optimistic for anyone, these days....I agree with your point >>> (which I've seconded before) Archytas, of direct injections of "state" >>> funding into project work.... I've said it before.... it is well past >>> proven that all the money that has been given to the financial sector >>> "banksters and traitors" has not done much (at all) for the majority of >>> people..... unfortunately... talk is cheap and it will probably take more >>> direct "acts" to prod the "bought-off" corporate politicians to do anything >>> of the sort.... The big problem is, of course.... there's only so much >>> money that can be given out by the Govt., before the newly-printed stuff >>> loses all value..... then the only way to go is for the Govt.s to "get" the >>> money through "taxation" where it is at... in the pockets of the "filthy" >>> rich...... HAR... Lonnie will love that idea... >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:11:10 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>> >>>> Kleptopia: Wie uns Finanzindustrie, Politik und Banken für dumm >>>> verkaufen - How Our Financial Sector, Politicians and Bankers Take Us >>>> For Fools - has just crossed my desk. This has an interesting tack on >>>> how Germany - perhaps the closes model of a modern economy - or at >>>> least ordinary Germans are ripped-off despite their hard work and >>>> trade surplus. I'm long convinced laissez-faire capitalism is a crock >>>> and private power as bad (and worse) than government power. >>>> >>>> On 19 Apr, 22:18, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > Not giving benefits as handouts could be a very good idea - as is >>>> > restitution generally. I favour a countervailing institution of >>>> local- >>>> > international project work - countervailing to "capitalism's" reserve >>>> > army of labour. I'm so angry about what's going on now I'd drag >>>> > banksters and Troika bureaucrats to such scenes as kids in Greece >>>> > rummaging in bins for food and even to the Congo rape war, subject >>>> > them to a drumhead courtmartial, strap on GPS trackers and tell them >>>> > to sort things. >>>> > >>>> > On 19 Apr, 15:51, nominal9 <nomin...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > Lonnie.... I have a bunch of derisive "stuff" to say about Fox and >>>> its cast >>>> > > of characters..... >>>> > > Do you really want to hear it?.....It gets to be pretty sophomoric, >>>> and I >>>> > > get tired of repeating myself in those terms...."namby -pamby" >>>> pales in >>>> > > comparison to the counter-right-wing material I could post, just >>>> from >>>> > > memory.... HAR...I'll let it slide, for now.... keep to the >>>> high-road... >>>> > >>>> > > On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:07:27 PM UTC-4, Lonnie Clay wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > > >>>> http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/02/12/woman-dies-from-drinking-10-... >>>> >>>> > >>>> > > > Should we ban coca cola because someone used it to drink herself >>>> to death? >>>> > > > I think not, and every namby-pamby liberal who talks about >>>> substance abuse >>>> > > > victims are just fighting evolution in action. >>>> > >>>> > > > >>>> http://envirothink.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/epa-says-saccharin-no-lon... >>>> >>>> > >>>> > > > There's a prime example of the nanny state with its head up its >>>> A$$ being >>>> > > > forced to retract a decree. >>>> > >>>> > > > Lonnie Courtney Clay >>>> > >>>> > > > On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:30:27 PM UTC-7, Lonnie Clay wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > >> "In some ways I'm not sure why any of us are still working. " >>>> > >>>> > > >> Well, the alternatives to working are taking charity from family >>>> or >>>> > > >> friends (I do), accepting government assistance (I do), >>>> accepting charity >>>> > > >> from benevolent organizations, living off accumulated wealth, >>>> borrowing >>>> > > >> money, or theft. The white collar crimes outweigh the petty >>>> thefts by a >>>> > > >> significant factor, often being measured in billions rather than >>>> millions. >>>> > > >> I put the increase down to cultural shifting towards dishonesty, >>>> caused >>>> > > >> primarily by childhood indoctrination from entertainment media >>>> that crime >>>> > > >> DOES pay, and pays quite well. Another factor is increased >>>> technological >>>> > > >> capabilities, especially computers, which allow criminals to >>>> commit >>>> > > >> esoteric crimes such as identity theft, derivatives fraud, and >>>> money >>>> > > >> laundering. Most of the increased law enforcement efforts have >>>> been >>>> > > >> ineffective in stemming the tide of crime. Harsher punishments >>>> unless well >>>> > > >> publicized are not effective as a deterrent against budding >>>> criminals. The >>>> > > >> basic problem is that people can now SEE that others reap >>>> rewards without >>>> > > >> hard work, either through crime or free handouts, due to >>>> sensationalist >>>> > > >> journalism and entertainment. >>>> > >>>> > > >> One of the more controversial things which I have proposed in >>>> the past is >>>> > > >> that handouts NOT be free, that they should require community >>>> service in >>>> > > >> exchange. Another is that all criminals should have to pay for >>>> their crimes >>>> > > >> not only with incarceration, but also with restitution to >>>> victims, and >>>> > > >> remedial counseling before their release. Parole oversight needs >>>> to be >>>> > > >> improved as well. >>>> > >>>> > > >> Drug trafficking has become a major worldwide industry due to >>>> government >>>> > > >> efforts to stop substance abuse. It didn't work with alcohol and >>>> it won't >>>> > > >> work for the rest, it just creates yet another class of >>>> criminal. Let the >>>> > > >> drug companies manufacture abused substances just like they do >>>> the >>>> > > >> thousands of prescription drugs which have the population >>>> hooked-on drugs. >>>> > > >> Require package inserts which detail the bad effects of the >>>> drugs and leave >>>> > > >> it up to the individual making the purchase to decide whether to >>>> be a user. >>>> > > >> Increase the penalties for crimes committed while under the >>>> influence of >>>> > > >> drugs, just as DWI is a higher charge than reckless driving. >>>> Make drugging >>>> > > >> someone without their knowledge a 20 year felony. >>>> > >>>> > > >> I don't want to talk any more about crime online, since I >>>> suspect that it >>>> > > >> would just be a tutorial for novices. >>>> > >>>> > > >> Lonnie Courtney Clay >>>> > >>>> > > >> On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:05:01 PM UTC-7, archytas wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > >>> I think you get all that right Lonnie. I've been trying to >>>> find out >>>> > > >>> what financial sector debt in the UK really is for over two >>>> years. In >>>> > > >>> numbers its anything from 230 - 510% of our GDP - a pretty >>>> > > >>> discouraging lack of accuracy - but I want to know its >>>> 'quality'. The >>>> > > >>> debt may be a good thing - a set of good performing loans - or >>>> it may >>>> > > >>> put the UK in a dire condition because its really Ponzi money >>>> relying >>>> > > >>> on asset valuations that are now mostly fictional. If the >>>> latter is >>>> > > >>> true the questions are about who will take the haircuts and >>>> whether >>>> > > >>> the UK taxpayer/bank account holder/bond holder etc. is on the >>>> hook. >>>> > > >>> Otherwise our government/household/corporate debt is comparable >>>> with >>>> > > >>> the US. >>>> > > >>> As a scientist I'd want to take a sample of the debt and try to >>>> sell >>>> > > >>> it in an open market. Its all currently valued by people with >>>> a >>>> > > >>> vested interest in making out everything is profitable - >>>> techniques we >>>> > > >>> know are bollox. >>>> > > >>> Frankly I believe all financial services (beyond utility >>>> banking) and >>>> > > >>> most economics are uselessly parasitic on genuine work and >>>> > > >>> production. I want to be able to ground this so we can move on >>>> to a >>>> > > >>> different way of living. I can barely describe what a putrid >>>> swamp >>>> > > >>> the mainstream is. Two Harvard arses, Reinhart & Rogoff have >>>> just >>>> > > >>> been exposed cheating as surely as any of my students through >>>> > > >>> spreadsheet manipulation. Their work had been widely used in >>>> support >>>> > > >>> of austerity programmes, but now we know they fiddled the >>>> figures and >>>> > > >>> the real case on their numbers was against austerity. I can't >>>> trust >>>> > > >>> allegedly peer reviewed papers, let alone stuff in which >>>> several >>>> > > >>> Enrons are considered as viable and even thriving through bent >>>> > > >>> auditing. >>>> > > >>> In some ways I'm not sure why any of us are still working. >>>> > >>>> > > >>> On Apr 13, 4:16 pm, Lonnie Clay <claylon...@comcast.net> >>>> wrote: >>>> > > >>> > Worldwide economies are foundering upon the rocks of modern >>>> > > >>> entertainments. >>>> > > >>> > I'll make the case for that. The rational response of a >>>> person to a >>>> > > >>> > stimulus is to do more of those things which bring pleasure >>>> rather >>>> > > >>> than >>>> > > >>> > punishment or boredom. With the rise of fiction in all of its >>>> forms, a >>>> > > >>> > person can gain pleasure from imagined world-scapes outside >>>> of the >>>> > > >>> "real" >>>> > > >>> > world's boundaries of experience. The pleasure of working >>>> life >>>> > > >>> achievement >>>> > > >>> > is limited to those who are both talented and trained to >>>> exercise >>>> > > >>> their >>>> > > >>> > talents. So which one do people choose when given the >>>> alternatives? >>>> > > >>> They >>>> > > >>> > increasingly choose entertainment, escaping from their >>>> fruitless >>>> > > >>> humdrum >>>> > > >>> > day to day existences into imaginary worlds of achievement. >>>> One reason >>>> > > >>> for >>>> > > >>> > that is the lack of opportunities in the modern economy >>>> resulting from >>>> > > >>> the >>>> > > >>> > failure of the educational systems to prepare people for >>>> productive >>>> > > >>> working >>>> > > >>> > careers. Another is the cultural shift towards >>>> self-gratification >>>> > > >>> rather >>>> > > >>> > than service to society. A third is the diminished rewards >>>> from >>>> > > >>> working >>>> > > >>> > resulting from the marginal reduction of income increase >>>> resulting >>>> > > >>> from >>>> > > >>> > government's taxation of wages economic activity. Why work >>>> harder to >>>> > > >>> gain >>>> > > >>> > more income when the government takes away more and more as >>>> your >>>> > > >>> income >>>> > > >>> > rises? Yet another is the diminished cost of life's >>>> necessities and >>>> > > >>> modest >>>> > > >>> > luxuries due to increased efficiency of production from >>>> product mass >>>> > > >>> > manufacturing. Why work harder when you have everything which >>>> you >>>> > > >>> need? >>>> > >>>> > > >>> > These factors result in diminished work force participation, >>>> the rise >>>> > > >>> of >>>> > > >>> > the welfare class, fewer employees working hard, market >>>> dislocations, >>>> > > >>> and >>>> > > >>> > diminished work ethics. >>>> > >>>> > > >>> > Lonnie Courtney Clay >>>> > >>>> > > >>> > On Friday, April 12, 2013 7:48:51 AM UTC-7, nominal9 wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > >>> > > Because it is so screwed up throughout the world that not >>>> fixing it >>>> > > >>> is >>>> > > >>> > > bound to lead to great social upheaval?????..... I think >>>> so. >>>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Epistemology" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to epistemology+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to epistemology@googlegroups.com. 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