sport / compete........survival / cooperate sport / cooperate......survival / compete
It's an actual old thematic dialectic I came up with analyzing a play "Aminta" by Torquato Tasso in the 1980's....plug in your "ethical preferences" and go from there....If you value sport / compete as "good / good"... then by contrary necessity you have to value survival / cooperate as "bad / bad"....etc....it all depends on point of view of moral or ethical predicated value....I agree that capitalist economics is more akin to a sport / compete situation.... the referees are definitely beneficial in keeping the cheating and fouls in check.... but my broader point is..... could a survival / cooperate template for economic activity be better or more attuned (at least) to some situations.....that's a rhetorical question, of course... some say yes, others no.... but at least recognize (or acknowledge openly) the range of option, I'd suggest.... leadership.... this gets into another set of thematic oppositions, not the least of which is the following freedom / choice.... dominance / compel freedom / compel....dominance / choice same thing... value one "course of action" option and the others are also valued on the basis of contrariety... whatever your point of view... Leadership defined how?.....is my point here. There are situations in life and society where, perforce, a dominance / compel relation is made to apply.... think military....chain of command.. orders being given by superior officers to subaltern soldiers.....but these military conditions of "leadership" are extraordinary and are assumed to apply on the assumption (in civilized or moral countries) that the leadership will only make orders in and ethical manner (at least most of the time)....but how about business or economic leadership.... the tension to dominance / compel there is greater and the ethical mandate more tenuous if even existent at all......... Great leaders.... ?..... me..... anarchist..... remember? ... but I acknowledge "reality"..... On Friday, April 26, 2013 1:07:12 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote: > > The Mussolini woman not quite my cup of visual tea. I did, many moons > back have a dalliance with the daughter of a French fascist. The > bloke was actually very decent to me and helped with an inquiry - > amazing what he was able to shift out of my way. I think the pork > sword wanted to stay but I had a chance to make the minor counties > cricket team. > > > > > I'm fairly convinced on revolution and if the only 'victims' were a > few bankers swinging from lamp-posts it would be a good thing for the > greater good. They do enough violence to us through redundancy and in > letting third world farmers die because a tractor has taken their work > or they give up to debt through suicide (250,000 in India alone in 10 > years). When it comes to such social experiment what price 92,000 > super rich against this? I think its time we took moral talk back > from sinecured Harvard professors and realised facts make oughts. > > > > > My problem with revolution is leadership. I'll spare you the crap > I've read that business schools and history produce. I've been > looking for a critical history of leadership and come up blank for > now. You can tell something is wrong when you ask people to list > great leaders - its rare anyone mentions anyone they actually met or > whose brain I wouldn't summarily test with a lead projectile (or two > to make sure). Quite a few come up with total myths from heroic > tragedy or religion. > > > > > One assumes we can only be conned in "appointing" tossers with shell > shock trauma like Hitler - I read a book on how he was conjured up > recently (though I'm not sure we can swallow the idea it is an Anglo- > American trick used to pit Germany against the USSR). I glanced at a > list of British PMs since Walpole (a couple before too) and they all > look like nondescript turkeys or villains of the elite like Churchill, > Thatcher and Blair. I fancy a history of their crookery and cronyism > would enlighten. I have Churchill and Blair as US spies - why do > novelists stick on such safe ground as the Da Vinci Code? Further > down the pecking order how do the stuffed shirts and crooks get to > lead our organisations generally? One survey of people going through > INSEAD (French major business school) failed t find a single instance > of a student not networked by nepotism or the 'royal route' through > the best European schools, universities and grandes ecoles. > > > > > What one finds is all kinds of "leadership skills" bandied about as > real but the connection I make is with religious lying (from gods met > just past the second burning bush up the mountain trail on the right, > the prophet we must not name who probably never existed and on to the > salamander in hat). The only thing special about leaders (in this > sense) I've met as CEOs and so on is that they could give me money, > let me stay in my job and so on. > > > > > In biology we can find leadership from insects up - indeed lower than > that (algae) - but it's quite rare for the death of a leader to cause > much trouble - one of the weedy proles just steps up to the mark, even > if it has to change sex and grow (clown fish?) - vile king mouse is > easily replaced by any male mouse you feed up and train to fight. > Elephants may be the exception in that the matriarch may have many of > the memories of collective experience. Some research has it that > shares go up 2.8% on average when a CEO dies unexpectedly - do you > sense the financial opportunity! Tap, tap, ching, ching! Strange > that we'd be nicked for writing the prospectus for that little scam > and not for one that involved war, rape, pillage and mass murder in > mineral extraction. In thought experiment we should a least consider > whether the world would change much of the Bilderburger lot all came > down with legionnaires' disease, or if Gates had popped his CIA clogs > and we had a new timeline of Dr Dos. > > > > > I suspect leadership is positional not personal - but the key thing > for change is whether we can understand it enough to change what > people do and become in it. Sport strikes me again Nom - even under > the eye of the ref we cheat and even when video records it. Finance > is hardly a game played in the open is it. Indeed with all technology > to make it so all effort goes into preventing this - I can no longer > read published big company balance sheets, P & L and cash flow - I'd > need 200 forensic-trained accountants, lawyers and leg people to visit > the assets. By now the rags I buy could have a label on them telling > me the ecological disaster, sweat shop and killing cost of the 4 quid > sweat shirt. What leadership skills went into denying me this > information? > We often hear the cry that we need leadership not management. I agree > - if only everyone believing this rot would charge off and die in the > middle of the volcano the great leaders directed them into - the world > would be a better place one a few decent cops locked up the leaders > for murder. > > > > > Not been anywhere interesting - next trip end of June to Ireland. > > > > > On Apr 26, 12:41 am, nominal9 <nomin...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Hi Archytas.....I guess you were busy.... something exciting?... like > > travel to some exotic place? > > > > I seem to remember about "fascist Bardot".... she's still a looker, > > though.... ever see pictures of Mussolini's granddaughter? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandra_Mussolinihttps://www.google.com/search?q, > > have a daliance with=mussolini%27s+granddaughter&safe=off&... > > > > not quite up to Brigitte's appeal... but not bad... same blond look... > > > > wealth tax.... your definition....sad but true.... I'm not knowledgeable > > but it appears to be most widely used in Switzerland....hey, the Swiss > > definitely know about money (and they are fairly equal-minded in > internal > > politics).... It may be a fairly good notion- if done right... > > > > "euthanise) excess money that could be speculated in money making money > or > > used to extract excessive economic rents."....What is your take on the > > basic "ethics" of Adam Smith... Archytas.... do you think that he was a > > "good faith" capitalist and economics thinker?.... I mean, do you think > his > > "heart" (social conscience) was in the right place?..... > > > > Haring and Douglas (2012) 'Economists and the Powerful'. .... so much to > > read.....the curiosity is willing, but the time ... maybe I'll try to > get > > at least a look at it... > > > > On Apr 26, 12:41 am, nominal9 <nomin...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Hi Archytas.....I guess you were busy.... something exciting?... like > > travel to some exotic place? > > > > I seem to remember about "fascist Bardot".... she's still a looker, > > though.... ever see pictures of Mussolini's granddaughter? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandra_Mussolinihttps://www.google.com/search?q=mussolini%27s+granddaughter&safe=off&;... > > > > > > not quite up to Brigitte's appeal... but not bad... same blond look... > > > > wealth tax.... your definition....sad but true.... I'm not knowledgeable > > but it appears to be most widely used in Switzerland....hey, the Swiss > > definitely know about money (and they are fairly equal-minded in > internal > > politics).... It may be a fairly good notion- if done right... > > > > "euthanise) excess money that could be speculated in money making money > or > > used to extract excessive economic rents."....What is your take on the > > basic "ethics" of Adam Smith... Archytas.... do you think that he was a > > "good faith" capitalist and economics thinker?.... I mean, do you think > his > > "heart" (social conscience) was in the right place?..... > > > > Haring and Douglas (2012) 'Economists and the Powerful'. .... so much to > > read.....the curiosity is willing, but the time ... maybe I'll try to > get > > at least a look at it... > > > > "structured jubilee on household debt. This is complex and would need > some > > international cooperation. My model comes from sports competition - > "... > > can you give a link or reference that I could look at for basic notions? > > > > "in my view much of what we have is either an elitist route through the > > best schools and universities that gives the rich a reproductive (of > > themselves as rich) advantage under lies of meritocracy, or > child-minding > > until 21 and debt peonage after. Humans are the only animals with the > vile > > teenage period. I'd go for much higher child-minding and early > education > > quality with better food until fourteen in small schools - free and with > > all year round child- > > minding. After that we'd go Internet with universities charged with > civic > > social organisation and local-international work projects. "... we could > > discuss this at length....personally.... I'd want a Nominal9Thematic > > Dialectic Logic requirement for all students at all levels.....not to > sound > > self-important or self-serving....but I think you get the gist of my way > of > > nominalist ( I call it) thinking......more empirical...actual physical > and > > reality (factual) hands on... less abstraction just for its own sake... > and > > an "ethical" component with a teaching of the possible range of all > > options... especially at the "course of action" human interaction > levels... > > historical, cultural, psycho-sociological, creative.... etc. > > > > Your last paragraph I will leave alone for now.....it gets into some > > "political" areas that.... as a self-styled "anarchist" HAR I might > rebel > > at or about with you.... Revolution.... I say... people should always > > strive for the most and best "freedoms" they can get.....Damn the nay > > sayers.... even those who think that they are.... shall we say.... > > "enlightened".... but I don't say that there is necessarily any of that > > sentiment or intention in what you may have in mind.... > > > > As usual.... nice learning from and talking with you... > again....Archytas.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, April 25, 2013 5:13:52 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote: > > > > > Bardo was fascist connected once. > > > There already is a wealth tax. The money goes from the poor to the > > > rich. > > > The idea amongst most classical economists was to encourage production > > > for social benefit. They wanted to curb or eliminate (Adam Smith's > > > term was euthanise) excess money that could be speculated in money > > > making money or used to extract excessive economic rents. Lots of > > > facts in Haring and Douglas (2012) 'Economists and the Powerful'. > > > Some tendency to treat you colonials as dumb-ass that's inaccurate. > > > I want to go further than a wealth tax and bring in a structured > > > jubilee on household debt. This is complex and would need some > > > international cooperation. My model comes from sports competition - > > > that is designing competition that has rules, active refereeing > > > subject to public scrutiny - but also tries to keep 'teams' in the > > > competition, perhaps subject to relegation and promotion. We need > > > competition that doesn't kill the other team or manipulate itself to > > > monopoly. Just as you can't compete in soccer by using guns, you > > > shouldn't compete in industrial manufacture through global wage/ > > > conditions arbitrage. And we'd need some kind of showtime - as in > > > people not buying the crap cars you make. > > > > > We generally miss something structural that's going on. I label this > > > robot heaven - work has got a lot easier thanks to robots like > > > tractors and much more productive. We could also look at stuff like > > > education - in my view much of what we have is either an elitist route > > > through the best schools and universities that gives the rich a > > > reproductive (of themselves as rich) advantage under lies of > > > meritocracy, or child-minding until 21 and debt peonage after. Humans > > > are the only animals with the vile teenage period. I'd go for much > > > higher child-minding and early education quality with better food > > > until fourteen in small schools - free and with all year round child- > > > minding. After that we'd go Internet with universities charged with > > > civic social organisation and local-international work projects. > > > > > Big questions arise about how much work we need and how much > > > opportunity we can give or need to restrict. Much of our dire > > > conditioning in medieval work ethics and forces of biological/ > > > propaganda hierarchy doesn't help us believe we can do something this > > > radical - and nor does bleeding heart liberalism on problems in > > > policing bandits, politicians, corporations, sexist religions and > > > nutters. There is also no point in modernising, say, farming in > > > India, to see millions die because no other work/income opportunity is > > > provided to prevent new owners just letting them die as the food is > > > exported (manifests of food leaving Ireland during the potato blight > > > are informative here). And there's no point in doing any of this if > > > some people insist on breeding us to global warming oblivion. > > > > > On 21 Apr, 18:59, nominal9 <nomin...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > I sort of like the wealth tax idea because it looks to be more as > wners > > > > "progressive" (i.e., affects more the wealthy than the > not-so-wealthy) > > > > right off the bat... unlike an income "flat tax" rate... HAR.. I > sort of > > > > think that the way it's explained and sorted out in the wiki > article.... > > > it > > > > might (almost definitely would) be strongly opposed by the "rich" > and > > > the > > > > libertarian minded....The France way of instituting a wealth tax has > > > > definitely caused a "capital flight".... There's the example of that > > > actor > > > > Gerard Depardieu, and I think I heard that even Brigitte Bardot > backed > > > the > > > > "capital flight" notion... > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9rard_Depardieuhttp://en.wikipedia...... > > > > > > > Depardieu, I can take or leave.....but Bardot.....well.... what > hetero > > > male > > > > our age could possibly leave her behind (take the "behind" part any > way > > > > please HAR).... > > > > Anyway.. it (wealth tax) seems to have worked well in other > places..... > > > > but, like I said.... it would likely be fought tooth and nail by the > > > > conservatives here in the U.S.... in any format or in any > combination of > > > > things... > > > > > > On Saturday, April 20, 2013 5:59:30 PM UTC-4, Lonnie Clay wrote: > > > > > > > I never saw that article before... > > > > > I read the whole thing with keen interest. Some points to consider > : > > > > > 1) The tax I propose is on the total wealth of all individuals and > > > > > organizations (including government), without exceptions, not just > a > > > net > > > > > wealth of individuals. > > > > > 2) Paying the tax should be voluntary, without penalty for failure > to > > > > > declare some item of wealth, EXCEPT that undeclared wealth is not > > > protected > > > > > by legal processes. > > > > > 3) The tax should render invalid other taxes on economic activity, > > > rather > > > > > than supplementing them. > > > > > > > Thanks for the link. > > > > > > > Lonnie Courtney Clay > > > > > > > On Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:07:10 PM UTC-7, nominal9 wrote: > > > > > > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax > > > > > > >> Does this wiki entry do the wealth tax idea justice?.....I'm > > > game.....but > > > > >> I can just hear the (mixed metaphor)..."fat cats squeal like > stuck > > > > >> pigs"..... already.....HAR....now, all we have to do is get it > > > enacted into > > > > >> law..... that should take about 200 years, minimum, here in the > U.S. > > > > > > >> On Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:02:10 PM UTC-4, Lonnie Clay wrote: > > > > > > >>> Three clauses of constitutional law should do it : > > > > >>> 1) Value shall legally exist in civil law only to the extent > that > > > the > > > > >>> applicable wealth tax was paid in advance of the legal issue. > > > > >>> 2) Value shall exist in criminal cases as specified by > applicable > > > laws > > > > >>> and regulations. > > > > >>> 3) There shall be no taxation of economic activity, and usage > fees > > > shall > > > > >>> be appropriate for expenses incurred by government entities. > > > > > > >>> So how about that? > > > > > > >>> Lonnie Courtney Clay > > > > > > >>> On Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:51:08 AM UTC-7, nominal9 wrote: > > > > > > >>>> Hi Lonnie....I'll accept you option to "tax wealth".....can you > > > explain > > > > >>>> "how" and "what" such a set of taxes would look like?.....cure > my > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Epistemology" group. 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