Mark, let me expound on this a bit. First, you have provided some facts
and I thank you. But you are ignoring the elephant in the room, namely
the inefficiency of producing hydrogen.
Let me put it this way. If you have a 1GW solar farm, should you use
that electricity to power homes and battery EVs or waste 50% of it to
produce H2, meanwhile powering those homes from coal- or natural
gas-generated electricty ?
Or, let me put it another way. On a small scale, subsidies (whether from
government or from a manufacturer, e.g. Toyota) are fine and an
excellent way to promote and test new technology. However, in large
scale, those subsidies must mostly go away or taxpayers will revolt. In
the case of fuel cell EVs, if many people were to already own one, the
incentive to produce H2 from natural gas would be overwhelming. (There
might not be a subsidy on the H2 itself but, clearly, there are
subsidies for the cars and the 3 years of free fuel.)
Let me put it a third way. If solar panels were so cheap that building
out solar farms for the sole purpose of producing H2 were feasible, why
isn't it also feasible to build out solar farms to replace natural gas
and coal generation of electricity ? It's happening, but at a
significant cost investment.
----------
Here's a few more details on the cost of H2 in california.
According to wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
a fuel cell can deliver about 33 kWh per kg of H2.
From an earlier post, "the average price of hydrogen in California is
$16.51 per kg." That means electricity from the fuel cell costs $0.50 /
kWh. Maybe that's not too bad, but it's still about 2.5 times the cost
of electricity on the grid in California.
Further, that reference
https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill
doesn't say the source of the "average" hydrogen - solar with hydrolysis
or natural gas with steam ? But, I found that California law mandates
that 40% of H2 for fuel cell EVs be produced from renewables, published
recently:
https://www.sierranevadaally.org/2021/05/05/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-are-building-momentum-in-california/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20consulting%20firm%20Wood%20Mackenzie%2C%20almost%20all%20hydrogen,hydrocarbon%20source%20material%20and%20energy
What is the cost per kWh for the 40% ? That is the only way to
understand the current true cost of kWh / kg of H2. $16.51 per kg is a
irrelevant number since it is including nonrenewables.
---------
Mark, in order for you to gain credibility from me on this topic, you
need to address this issue. I'll readily accept that the cost of fuel
cells will come down and that, maybe, the cost of fueling stations can
come down when done at large scale. But there's nothing that I'm aware
of that will significantly bring down the cost of generating H2. Long
term, that's the crucial element from a customer point of view and, if
electricity from H2 is significantly more expensive than electricity
from a battery, it will not gain public acceptance for large scale
usage.
Peri
<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
------ Original Message ------
From: "Alan Brinkman via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: "Alan Brinkman" <alanlbrink...@gmail.com>
Sent: 25-Aug-21 13:06:48
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen vs Battery Power
Hello EVDL,
The draw of Hydrogen is that using it produces H2O, water. What a great
exhaust product. But the energy to separate Hydrogen out of H2O to produce
it is too great. It is better to use that energy to charge batteries and
drive an EV.
If you want to spend money on researching how to produce Hydrogen using
much less energy, that is a good idea. A catalyst or unique process would
be good.
Just switching from petroleum fuels to Hydrogen at the current time is not
a great benefit. EV's are the tool.
Make it a great day!
Alan
On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 10:48 AM Willie via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
On 8/25/21 11:10 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>>> ...by Electrify America, they said that they charge 31ยข/kWh.
> I have seen rates as low as 3 cents per kW
> for EV charging off-peak for those that sign up for a TOU plan
> (includes much higher peak rates)
>
> "Hydrogen Fool cell" is a reasonable moniker.
>
> Wont this thread ever die?
->I<- think it is time for it to die.
Much discussion back and forth. Little logic. Little promise for the
future. Not a single example of FCEV advantage over BEV. I say at risk
of appearing to gang up on Mark. Even though I have resisted giving
that appearance.
> OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free...
> (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh
> because that is what each kW is worth that I push back
> into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost).
Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal. Though it makes your
charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal. I buy at
$.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06. OTOH, my
utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to
produce. Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range
of 6-8 years.
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