On 5/13/2012 9:35 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Sat, May 12, 2012 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
<mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:
>I guess I have to draw a diagram
Determined
|
|
Coerced-------------------------Free
|
|
Random
Thanks but as I said I already knew that orthogonal means at right angles, but what does
"free" mean, free to do what? It means the ability to do what you want to do. So if
you're free you did what you did for a reason and your desire was that reason. What
caused you to have that particular desire (reason) rather than another? The short answer
is I don't know. Perhaps it was your heredity or perhaps it was your environment, in
either case it would be deterministic; but maybe there was no reason at all for you to
have that particular desire, and then it would be random. One thing I do know, it was
cause for a reason or it was not caused for a reason.
Right, free/coerced still leaves the decision either for a reason or not - that's what
"orthogonal" means.
But just noting that it's still for a reason or not doesn't mean it's not coerced or free.
It is not coercion when it is in accord with your desire; it's coerced only when it is in
accord some other person's desire and contrary to yours. That's why offering you money to
do something is not considered coercion, but threatening you with death or injury if you
don't is. Some libertarians hold that coercion is an incoherent concept, since one can in
theory just accept the death or injury, so all decisions are equally 'free'. You seem to
take the opposite view, that since every decision is influenced, they are all equally
'coerced'. Society has found it useful to make distinction, at least in the application
of laws.
> that points in all quadrants of the above diagram are possible.
No they are not because you have not defined what the "coerced-free" axes is, or at
least you have not done so in a way that is not riddled with self contradictions.
I have defined it as it is used in common discourse and inlaw: Coerced means influenced by
another person so as to determine your decision. Free means not-coerced. There is an
axis because there are degrees of influence, which are recognized in as degrees of
responsibility in law. If you rob a bank because someone is holding your children hostage
and threatening to kill them if you don't, the law considers this coercion and doesn't
hold you responsible.
And you have most certainly not demonstrated how it, or anything else for that matter,
could be independent (or orthogonal if you want to be pompous) of both determinism and
randomness.
How law and society assigns responsibility and mitigation is obviously independent of
whether the world is deterministic or random (which also admit of degrees).
Brent
John K Clark
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