Yes. Consider another example: when a software is designed which accepts user inputs, all possible inputs are considered and responses coded accordingly. So, when the software is bring used, the user provides whatever input he wills, but his possible choices are already known. And another example: a teacher teaches his students for a whole year, sets the paper and then the students take the exam. The teacher knows the students well enough to know what to expect from which student, yet they are given the opportunity to take the exam. It's not the teacher's fault if some students fail while others make it through and some excel. All are being graded according to the amount of effort and interest they put in throughout the year and in preparation of the exam, and how seriously they took the exam. The above are but human-human interactions. With God as the software designer and the teacher, how much more exact His estimation of the outcomes would be. Moreover, in the software example, the result of a user input is already pre-coded (predetermined), yet the user uses the software (actions / deeds), and the outcomes (judgement) reflect user-input.
Samiya On 03-Dec-2013, at 3:50 PM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote: > On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 2:18 AM, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> On 03-Dec-2013, at 5:42 AM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and >>>> outside the faith. God, in His complete knowledge, knows each and every >>>> soul and who is worthy of eternal bliss and who not. However, according to >>>> a decree, humans have been granted respite and an opportunity to believe >>>> and do good. Something like an exam for a degree or a quality-check and >>>> sorting of manufactured goods. This necessarily requires a belief in an >>>> event no longer in conscious human memory, but which nevertheless is the >>>> cause of this life, and the belief in Accountability for beliefs and >>>> actions in a life after this life. Either one reasons that outcomes are >>>> already known to God hence there really is no need to 'do' anything, or >>>> one intensifies one's effort to search for 'truth' and do as much good as >>>> may be possible, so as to take full advantage of this temporal life, using >>>> it for eternal bliss. >>> >>> But the problem is that either I reason that the outcome is already >>> known or not, it is indeed already known, according to what you said >>> before. So we're just watching as it unfolds. >> >> From our vantage point, one could argue that. Yet, all it does is paralyse >> action. There is a strong emphasis placed on hope and forgiveness. Believers >> are not allowed to be 'sit and watch it out'. Belief without good deeds is >> no good. >> >>> >>>> My understanding may be wrong, for all we know this may be the only life, >>>> nothing before or after, but what if there is? >>> >>> If there is, and my life is predetermined and I'm still going to be >>> punished or rewarded, then it's just a matter of waiting and seeing if >>> I win the cosmic lottery no? You still didn't address the problem that >>> you cannot have predetermination and free-will at the same time. >> >> >> It is attributed to Caliph Ali that when someone asked him about this, he >> asked the person to stand on one foot, with the other foot folded behind >> him. Next he asked the person to stand with both feet folded up. Obviously >> the latter is not humanly possible. That, he said, is the difference between >> what we can choose to do and what we have no choice about. > > If Caliph Ali told me to stand on one of my feet, I could choose left > or right. But god already knows which one I'm going to choose right? > So if god knows I'm going to choose to stand on my right foot, then > I'm going to stand on my right foot. I might think that I could have > chosen to stand on the left foot, but this would clearly be an > illusion. > >>> >>>> And how difficult is it to believe in this age of technology that all is >>>> being recorded and will be replayed? Reasons enough to bother... >>> >>> What do you mean by replayed? If the same moment is perfectly >>> replayed, then it's indistinguishable from all other instances of the >>> same moment. There's still just one moment. Otherwise they are >>> different moments, and it's not a replay. >> >> How about a 3D video playback? > > Suppose we take this moment we are in right now and replay it N times. > In each one of these replays, we cannot be aware that it is a replay, > otherwise it's not the same moment. The exact state of our must be > repeated, so it cannot contain the information that we're in a replay. > Then the concept of replay becomes absurd. It's like replacing one > hydrogen atom with another hydrogen atom and claim that something > changed. > > Replay implies time, and time is already inside our experiences. What > would a replay mean from outside of our experience? Do you see my > problem? > >> Well, it is said that our eyes, ears and skins will bear witness to what we >> used to do in this life, as God will give them the power of speech. So that >> will be different. > > It is possible to find many interesting thoughts in religious texts. > Clearly some were written by people doing deep introspection, probably > with the aid of some plants. I don't think they were meant to be taken > literally. It's like looking at a painting by Dali and then deciding > to look for the location of the landscape he painted. It's not > outside. > > Telmo. > >> >> Samiya >> >>> >>> Telmo. >>> >>>> Samiya >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:51 PM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages: >>>>>> On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children of >>>>>> Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being killed and >>>>>> females kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God. >>>>>> At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to you, good >>>>>> or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it into >>>>>> existence. This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by, >>>>>> nor exult over ... >>>>>> There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to wish >>>>>> away, but it helps to understand that all things / events / >>>>>> circumstances are trials, temporary and transient. In this life, nothing >>>>>> is a reward or punishment, rather everything is a trial, and an >>>>>> opportunity to do good deeds through helping those in need. Reward and >>>>>> Punishment are concepts associated with the Hereafter, and are of a >>>>>> permanent nature. >>>>>> No, he didn't say "Oops!", God exhorts us to reflect and ponder! >>>>> >>>>> Hi Samiya, >>>>> >>>>> If whatever happens is inscribed in a decree before we bring it into >>>>> existence, so is the outcome of the trials. So why bother? >>>>> >>>>> Telmo. >>>>> >>>>>> Samiya >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:09 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 02 Dec 2013, at 13:39, Samiya Illias wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in >>>>>>>> every possible meaning of the word. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is God perfect for the children in Syria? (Easy question on an hard >>>>>>> subject) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here, you might hope that God will succeed in consolating them and that >>>>>>> everything is OK. But that state of mind might make us accept more >>>>>>> easily the tragedies, and that fatalism ... might be fatal for the >>>>>>> incarnation of the good. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The question, put in a another way, who are you to judge God's >>>>>>> perfection? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You might, like Gödel, assume that God has all positive attributes and >>>>>>> as such is perfect, and one day we will understand the tragedies, but I >>>>>>> am not sure such a God makes sense for the universal machines. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If it makes sense, then I am willing to bet it is a truth belonging to >>>>>>> G*, and not G. That would mean that God was perfect ... until you said >>>>>>> so. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The theological truth must remain silent, or be justified from some >>>>>>> shared assumptions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you say God is perfect to those who lost people they care about, it >>>>>>> might be impolite, and you will again fuel atheism. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hell is paved with the best intentions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> God might also not be perfect, and you might have the right to be angry >>>>>>> against She/Him/It. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic >>>>>>>> philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that >>>>>>>> God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the >>>>>>>> power to alter them (or any other "necessary" truths, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> God created logic and the integers, and arithmetic. Then he said >>>>>>> "Oops!". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Analysis, Topology, Algebra, Physics, History, Geography, archeology >>>>>>> and Theology are tools for the integers to understand themselves. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Truth already warns the numbers: the path is infinite and there are >>>>>>> surprises. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bruno >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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