On Sunday, May 4, 2014 12:09:10 PM UTC+1, telmo_menezes wrote: > > > > > On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 7:15 AM, <ghi...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote: > >> >> On Sunday, May 4, 2014 12:14:59 AM UTC+1, Liz R wrote: >> >>> On 4 May 2014 07:22, spudboy100 via Everything List < >>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I shan't defend the behaviors of the Abe religions over the centuries, >>>> but you couldn't term the Hindu faith as pacifist either. In the 20th >>>> century the political movement that had atheism at its core, was the >>>> Marxist ideology, and how many tens of millions did it destroy, 70 mil, >>>> 100? Not a bad catchup I'd say. The "pagan" faiths, previous to, and >>>> coexistent with the Abe religions were not pacifist either and were hungry >>>> for land, slaves, and murder, just like the Abe's, and even worse. Pagan >>>> Rome employed crucifixion, remember? The ancient Chinese, were plenty, >>>> murderous, as well. In the Americas and Africa, as far as archaeologists >>>> and physical anthropologists, have determined, and were, what I term as >>>> being 'genocide friendly.' None of the species were really nice guys for >>>> much of the time.. >>> >>> >>> Yep, the religions known as Stalinism and Nazism were just as >>> destructive as the Crusades, etc. In fact anything ending in "Ism" seems to >>> be a justification for murder or cruelty. (It looks like Capitalism is >>> catching up with the others, and may soon surpass all of them if we aren't >>> careful.) >>> >> >> Excusing me, but the Crusades were a nick of time defensive response to a >> massive ongoing Islamic aggression. >> > > > Not at all. The Crusades began when the tide was already turning in favor > of the western kingdoms' reconquest of European territory. This had been > going on for centurie > Well, you have voiced a summary view of one camp of historians, and I have voiced the summary view of another. You seem to acknowledge a "tide was turning" that the direction was that of Islam being pushed back having made inroads into Christian lands. Of course hit is true what comes under the Crusades header is a really complex long running piece of history. I simplified favouring Europe, and you simplified favouring Islam. I would say your simplification is much more typical these days, than mine. I'd also have to note that your reaction for my sin goes a lot further. Whereas I keep my simplification focused at the start of the crusades and mention what is an unfolding disaster in Europe now, you sort of generalize your disfavour to this familiar - and lets face it pretty dominant idea that Europeans can be credited with much everything bad. But not their accomplishments...those are written off as accidents, thefts, or universalized so other peoples share equally...but strangely never have to universalize or put down to accidentsand thefts any of their own. Isn't it actually true, that Europeans currently t the opposite, only bad stuff can be associated, and it is, continually and spread nice and thickly. But not the accomplishments and good things. Europeans suddenly don't exist at all when that comes up. But every other people seems to get the exact opposite. The failings are not to be mentioned, ever. The accomplishments...these must be neverendingly praised and celebrated. You don't find that unfair telmo? I mean, I said nothing about any of that...but I did use a positive word "European" like something like that actually has an existence. And I did simplify the other way. Maybe that did it.
> They had got as far as Spain by the time the ever dosy Europeans got their >> act together and realized this was now a choice betyween fighting for r >> survival or succumbing. >> > > a > There was no Spain at the time, and no unifying concept of "Europeans". > These things came later. > In a sense, the western world as we understand it today was forged at this > time. The crusades where not only a war against the arabs, they were also a > strategy by the vatican to consolidate its power and erase the influence of > older European religions. You still find many traces of these religions if > you visit the north of Portugal and Spain. > You're in a certain context, which I was already aware. But you not really right to suggest those terms should not be used. It's how things are understood now so it's reasonable. We talk about Africa, or Europe or America, like up to millions of years ago. It's alright to do that. > > >> You say it like it was the other way around. A very popular myth in the >> Muslim world of today....maybe once it was prouder than that, I don't know. >> > > There are several records that seem to indicate that the Muslims were a > much more tolerant civilisation than the several European kingdoms at the > time. > Certainly, of course. There's a lot of great architecture and art as well. I made no sweeping statements about Islam through history. Nor any sweeping statements about accomplishments of Western Civilization.....but since I'm there now, it's ridiculous to suggest it doesn't sit alongside the great civilizations humanity has produced. I mean, you wouldn't say that to a Chinese person or a Jew so why do you think it doesn't hurt a European when you so something like that to her? > For example, they had universities in the iberian peninsula and would > allow non-muslims to enrol. Also, it appears that they respected local > religions and never attacked or destroyed their places of worship. They > were clearly more technologically advanced, had a much better understanding > of mathematics and its applications and so on.re > Sure,and then of course there's the Normans and all the beautiful city states they created up and down the coasts of Italy, once they'd bashed everyone to bits....where maths and art thrived and Muslims as their neighbours in mini- enlightenments that ran for hundreds of years. If you are going to mention these things, give a cheer for Europe too. Why not? > > Later on, Portugal initiated the Age of Discoveries by a fluke of History, > thus setting in motion the chain of events that eventually lead to today's > western hegemony. Both the Moors and the Chineses were much better > positioned to do it, technologically and culturally. > This was really funny Telmo...not unkindly. But one has to note that in trashing Europe in the end you couldn't resist a big cheer for your Portugal. A very silly suggestion as you make it, but that's not to say Portugal aren't full participants and contributors to the European story. You had to trash it as an accident....which is sad. Why do you feel you have to do this to Europe and say this to Europeans? > > The Muslim civilisation regressed tremendously to the current times, and > it's now going through some dark ages period. As usual, religious > fundamentalism seems to play a big role in this. > Well, that isn't what I said, nothing amounting to as much as that. I don't think it's true actually. SE Asia is largely Muslim and they are successful, modern societies, with advanced technologies. There's as many there as Arabia I should think, so I do not think your generalization should stand actually. Islam is alright by and large...as you say. The problems seem to connect to Islam + certain ethnic group and/or cultures That's how it looks. > > >> But accountability at the cultural level is not an Islamic strong suite >> in our time. Look at our guest right here. Bizarre that he pretends >> everything is ok. It isn't....Everywhere Muslims have settled in Europe is >> an unfolding disaster. There's no respect or regard for being in another >> peoples beloved lands and culture. >> > > Maybe so, but the solution is to help raise them out of poverty, not to > attack them. > I haven't attacked anyone, but there isn't some special duty on Europeans to do this...nor to take terrible abuse and disrespect from settling communities, and say nothing lest be accused of racism or attacking or something. Becauise that's the dominant pressure isn't it. And you seem pretty in the groove. Are you European Christian heritage yourself out of interest? I assume so, but if you're not I hope you'll say what your heritage is, and you'll be willing to take the harsh criticism back in the other direction. What about the massive increase in rape of young girls in places like Sweden...all of it attributable to newly settled Muslim heritage. Do you spare a thought for them? What about the ancient, say, Swedish folk displaced...their futures are in ruin, and there's a major pressure in the world that for some reason an ancient people no less so than the Jewish or any other people,. On a land they've called home for thousands of years.;...need to be dispossessing themselves and need not be at all anxious about what will come of them or their chidren. Is anyone else doing this? Are the people pushing for it doing this. The UK police recently all but acknowledged they've lost control now because it's everywhere street grooming by Muslims of white female childfen as young as 10. They are brutally abused..sadistically by gangs of men actually related to oneanother very often...so they know eachother...which makes it look mainstream at least in those communites that our beloved children our meat lower than animals or treated that way. Ten thousand white female children as young as 10 servicing clients of Pakistani muslim desent in brothels in the UK. Sparing a thought for them? > Sharia should not be tolerated in the western world, but apart from that > the solution is to increase trade and economic cooperation, not to wage > wars. Religious fundamentalism festers amongst the people who have nothing > to lose, and the sociopaths who explore this state of affairs. > > We should respect the "prime directive" :) > Yeah? Didn't hear much that sounded like a prime direction for Europeans or their loved cultures, no less ancientand distinctive than yours. > > Telmo. > > >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. 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