Hi ghibbsa,
On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 3:24 PM, <ghib...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sunday, May 4, 2014 12:09:10 PM UTC+1, telmo_menezes wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 7:15 AM, <ghi...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> On Sunday, May 4, 2014 12:14:59 AM UTC+1, Liz R wrote: >>> >>>> On 4 May 2014 07:22, spudboy100 via Everything List < >>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I shan't defend the behaviors of the Abe religions over the centuries, >>>>> but you couldn't term the Hindu faith as pacifist either. In the 20th >>>>> century the political movement that had atheism at its core, was the >>>>> Marxist ideology, and how many tens of millions did it destroy, 70 mil, >>>>> 100? Not a bad catchup I'd say. The "pagan" faiths, previous to, and >>>>> coexistent with the Abe religions were not pacifist either and were hungry >>>>> for land, slaves, and murder, just like the Abe's, and even worse. Pagan >>>>> Rome employed crucifixion, remember? The ancient Chinese, were plenty, >>>>> murderous, as well. In the Americas and Africa, as far as archaeologists >>>>> and physical anthropologists, have determined, and were, what I term as >>>>> being 'genocide friendly.' None of the species were really nice guys for >>>>> much of the time.. >>>> >>>> >>>> Yep, the religions known as Stalinism and Nazism were just as >>>> destructive as the Crusades, etc. In fact anything ending in "Ism" seems to >>>> be a justification for murder or cruelty. (It looks like Capitalism is >>>> catching up with the others, and may soon surpass all of them if we aren't >>>> careful.) >>>> >>> >>> Excusing me, but the Crusades were a nick of time defensive response to >>> a massive ongoing Islamic aggression. >>> >> >> >> Not at all. The Crusades began when the tide was already turning in favor >> of the western kingdoms' reconquest of European territory. This had been >> going on for centurie >> > > Well, you have voiced a summary view of one camp of historians, and I have > voiced the summary view of another. You seem to acknowledge a "tide was > turning" that the direction was that of Islam being pushed back having made > inroads into Christian lands. > Of course hit is true what comes under the Crusades header is a really > complex long running piece of history. > Ok, we can agree on this. > I simplified favouring Europe, and you simplified favouring Islam. > I don't feel I'm favouring Islam. I just accused them of regressing to dark ages... I am simply proposing that they had a more advanced civilisation than Europe at a certain point in history. I would say your simplification is much more typical these days, than mine. > I'd also have to note that your reaction for my sin goes a lot further. > Whereas I keep my simplification focused at the start of the crusades and > mention what is an unfolding disaster in Europe now, you sort of generalize > your disfavour to this familiar - and lets face it pretty dominant idea > that Europeans can be credited with much everything bad. > Not at all. I think that all major civilisations can be credited with a lot of good and bad things. Furthermore, I can tell you that western civilisation is by far the closest to my values in modern times. I criticise western civilisation because I care and hold it to a very high standard. > But not their accomplishments... > The accomplishments of western civilisation are numerous and incredible, and span centuries. I think you are assuming a disagreement that we don't have. > those are written off as accidents, thefts, or universalized so other > peoples share equally...but strangely never have to universalize or put > down to accidentsand thefts any of their own. Isn't it actually true, that > Europeans currently t the opposite, only bad stuff can be associated, and > it is, continually and spread nice and thickly. But not the accomplishments > and good things. Europeans suddenly don't exist at all when that comes up. > But every other people seems to get the exact opposite. The failings are > not to be mentioned, ever. The accomplishments...these must be > neverendingly praised and celebrated. > > You don't find that unfair telmo? I mean, I said nothing about any of > that...but I did use a positive word "European" like something like that > actually has an existence. And I did simplify the other way. Maybe that did > it. > I was just saying that the Europeans were not an organised entity in that specific point in time. They were organised before under the Roman Empire and became organised again later under the Vatican. So my point was simply to question your statement that some organised entity had to take sudden action against an external aggression. > They had got as far as Spain by the time the ever dosy Europeans got >>> their act together and realized this was now a choice betyween fighting for >>> r survival or succumbing. >>> >> >> a >> There was no Spain at the time, and no unifying concept of "Europeans". >> These things came later. >> In a sense, the western world as we understand it today was forged at >> this time. The crusades where not only a war against the arabs, they were >> also a strategy by the vatican to consolidate its power and erase the >> influence of older European religions. You still find many traces of these >> religions if you visit the north of Portugal and Spain. >> > > You're in a certain context, which I was already aware. But you not really > right to suggest those terms should not be used. It's how things are > understood now so it's reasonable. We talk about Africa, or Europe or > America, like up to millions of years ago. It's alright to do that. > Talking of "Spain" before it was formed can create a false interpretation of history, because it implies a type of national unity that is more modern and not present at the time. You can refer geographically to the iberian peninsula or geo-politically to "the kingdoms of the iberian peninsula". Also, most of the world was unknown, so the concept we have nowadays of "Europe" does not match how people saw the world at the time. > > >> >> >>> You say it like it was the other way around. A very popular myth in the >>> Muslim world of today....maybe once it was prouder than that, I don't know. >>> >> >> There are several records that seem to indicate that the Muslims were a >> much more tolerant civilisation than the several European kingdoms at the >> time. >> > > Certainly, of course. There's a lot of great architecture and art as well. > I made no sweeping statements about Islam through history. Nor any sweeping > statements about accomplishments of Western Civilization.....but since I'm > there now, it's ridiculous to suggest it doesn't sit alongside the great > civilizations humanity has produced. I mean, you wouldn't say that to a > Chinese person or a Jew so why do you think it doesn't hurt a European > when you so something like that to her? > Ok, sorry for the assumption. Again, I'm not criticising Europe by any means. But if I were, I would feel more comfortable doing it than criticising other ethnicities for the simple fact that I'm European. In the same sense that I feel more comfortable making fun of myself than other people. > > >> For example, they had universities in the iberian peninsula and would >> allow non-muslims to enrol. Also, it appears that they respected local >> religions and never attacked or destroyed their places of worship. They >> were clearly more technologically advanced, had a much better understanding >> of mathematics and its applications and so on.re >> > > Sure,and then of course there's the Normans and all the beautiful city > states they created up and down the coasts of Italy, once they'd bashed > everyone to bits....where maths and art thrived and Muslims as their > neighbours in mini- enlightenments that ran for hundreds of years. > > If you are going to mention these things, give a cheer for Europe too. Why > not? > Go Europe! :) > >> Later on, Portugal initiated the Age of Discoveries by a fluke of >> History, thus setting in motion the chain of events that eventually lead to >> today's western hegemony. Both the Moors and the Chineses were much better >> positioned to do it, technologically and culturally. >> > > This was really funny Telmo...not unkindly. But one has to note that in > trashing Europe in the end you couldn't resist a big cheer for > your Portugal. A very silly suggestion as you make it, but that's not to > say Portugal aren't full participants and contributors to the European > story. You had to trash it as an accident....which is sad. Why do you feel > you have to do this to Europe and say this to Europeans? > You caught me there :) I am not a fan of patriotism, but my ancestors did some amazing things that are a bit under-appreciated in the current anglo-saxon dominated world, so I guess I can put in a good word for them. It's nothing for me to be proud of, because I didn't do these things myself, but I am aware of them so why not? The initiation of the Age of Discoveries was, in my opinion, a perfect storm of a desperate situation in Portugal and set-backs in Arab kingdoms (political unrest) and China (crops destroyed by bad weather). Dan Carlin, of "Hardcore History" has a very nice podcast about this, but I'm afraid it's behind a paywall now: http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/hharchive This is not to say that what came before wasn't amazing. Portugal created new technology, in the span of a few years, that allowed to sail against the winds, navigate on the high sees and so on. Then they just started exploring, with survival rates of 10% at some points and having no idea of what to expect on the other side. Going to the moon seems like a walk in the park compared to this. This happened because the attempts to expand into North Africa failed. So the rulers at the time took a very unusual and extreme measure: let the geeks be in charge. And the geeks created the NASA of their time: the "Escola de Sagres". > > >> >> The Muslim civilisation regressed tremendously to the current times, and >> it's now going through some dark ages period. As usual, religious >> fundamentalism seems to play a big role in this. >> > > Well, that isn't what I said, nothing amounting to as much as that. I > don't think it's true actually. SE Asia is largely Muslim and they are > successful, modern societies, with advanced technologies. There's as many > there as Arabia I should think, so I do not think your generalization > should stand actually. Islam is alright by and large...as you > say. The problems seem to connect to Islam + certain ethnic group and/or > cultures That's how it looks. > Fair enough. I wasn't considering SE Asia. > > >> >> >>> But accountability at the cultural level is not an Islamic strong suite >>> in our time. Look at our guest right here. Bizarre that he pretends >>> everything is ok. It isn't....Everywhere Muslims have settled in Europe is >>> an unfolding disaster. There's no respect or regard for being in another >>> peoples beloved lands and culture. >>> >> >> Maybe so, but the solution is to help raise them out of poverty, not to >> attack them. >> > > I haven't attacked anyone, > I wasn't accusing you of attacking anyone. I meant the general actions of the western powers. > but there isn't some special duty on Europeans to do this... > There isn't. I'm just saying that it's in our best self-interest, and that we are the closest thing to the sober driver at the moment. > nor to take terrible abuse and disrespect from settling communities, and > say nothing lest be accused of racism or attacking or something. Becauise > that's the dominant pressure isn't it. And you seem pretty in the groove. > I have no sympathy for tolerance of the sharia in Europe, I am aware that it's happening and I'm revolted by the spineless politicians that allow this to happen. > Are you European Christian heritage yourself out of interest? > Yes, Portuguese and Spanish many generations back, and I was raised as a catholic too. > I assume so, but if you're not I hope you'll say what your heritage is, > and you'll be willing to take the harsh criticism back in the other > direction. > > What about the massive increase in rape of young girls in places like > Sweden...all of it attributable to newly settled Muslim heritage. Do you > spare a thought for them? > What about the ancient, say, Swedish folk displaced...their futures are in > ruin, and there's a major pressure in the world that for some reason an > ancient people no less so than the Jewish or any other people,. On a land > they've called home for thousands of years.;...need to be dispossessing > themselves and need not be at all anxious about what will come of them or > their chidren. Is anyone else doing this? Are the people pushing for it > doing this. > > The UK police recently all but acknowledged they've lost control now > because it's everywhere street grooming by Muslims of white female childfen > as young as 10. They are brutally abused..sadistically by gangs of men > actually related to oneanother very often...so they know eachother...which > makes it look mainstream at least in those communites that our beloved > children our meat lower than animals or treated that way. Ten > thousand white female children as young as 10 servicing clients of > Pakistani muslim desent in brothels in the UK. Sparing a thought for them? > I honestly know nothing of such things. I will look into it. > > >> Sharia should not be tolerated in the western world, but apart from that >> the solution is to increase trade and economic cooperation, not to wage >> wars. Religious fundamentalism festers amongst the people who have nothing >> to lose, and the sociopaths who explore this state of affairs. >> >> We should respect the "prime directive" :) >> > > Yeah? Didn't hear much that sounded like a prime direction for Europeans > or their loved cultures, no less ancientand distinctive than yours. > I'm European and I'm just saying that we are the sober ones at the moment (although maybe a bit tipsy already) Telmo. > >> Telmo. >> >> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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