On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 7:09 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On 9/26/2014 1:14 AM, Russell Standish wrote: > >> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 03:17:07AM +0200, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 1:03 AM, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Well done for being obtuse! The platonically malleable urstuff is >>>> usually taken to be integer arithmetic, although any system capable of >>>> universal computation will do, such as Bruno's combinators >>>> example. >>>> >>> >>> You appear to be making the dog chase its tail. >>> >> ? >> >> >>> But conscious does not supervene on that, for the reasons >>>> given in my paper, but rather on sheaves of computations that make it >>>> up, by assumption of COMP. >>>> >>> >>> Not in your sense of requiring physical, concrete realizations: why do we >>> need those? >>> >> We don't, if by "concrete" you mean what Bruno means by it. >> >> What are they and how do we avoid attributing originality to >>> all your doppelgangers distributed in UD if such is given? >>> >>> originality? >> >> It also must supervene on the emergent >>>> phenomenal physics that arises. That is a raw empirical fact that no >>>> pussy-footing around can eliminate. >>>> >>> The MGA demonstrates the >>> >>>> fundamental contradiction between COMP and physical supervenience in a >>>> non-robust universe, consequently the only way to save COMP is for the >>>> universe to be robust. >>>> >>>> You pretend that this is common sense. That's much less clear to me. >>> >>> This stuff is far from common sense. It is a simple matter of logic, >> however. >> >> If you accept the empirical fact of physical supervenience (as I do, >> and indeed also have arguments for why it must be so - see the Occam >> Catastrophe discussion in my book), then the fact that the MGA forces >> a contradiction between physical supervenience and computational >> supervenience in a non-robust universe really just says there is a >> choice: either we live in a robust universe, or computationalism is >> false. The fact that we additionally observe quantum phenomena really >> supports the idea we live in a robust universe. In a non-robust >> universe, quantum phenomena is just weird. >> >> Additionally, in a robust universe, the Church-Turing thesis tells us >> that physics we supervene on must be emergent from the properties of >> universal systems (Bruno's reversal result). Thus the matter we supervene >> on cannot be "primitive". The primitive urstuff is something else >> entirely - the arithmetic of integers, perhaps, as Bruno suggests - >> but not matter as we know it. >> > > I think I agree with you (see further query's below). But it's not > entirely clear why matter cannot be primitive. It's not clear because > "matter" isn't defined (as Bruno likes to point out when criticizing what > he calls "Aristotelianism"). I think your point is that naively conceived > matter isn't complex enough to avoid the reductio's like the MGA. But at > PGC intuites quantum "matter" may well be. Lots of physicists have already > observed that the "matter" they talk about has become so abstract it's hard > to say how it differs from mathematical objects. > > >> You may think robust universes are baroque, but I don't. Infinite, >>>> symmetrical ensembles of universes are simpler from an information >>>> theoretic perspective than specific finite instances. This is >>>> ultimately the strongest argument in favour of platonism. >>>> >>>> But there is a sense that nature doesn't have to play by our >>>> rules. Maybe we really do live in a non-robust universe. If so, we >>>> cannot have our COMP and eat it. >>>> >>>> I don't see how stating that UD (straight, not shaken or stirred with >>> Quantum computer material stuff actualizing) is too cumbersome to realize >>> physically wherever it is that we are, >>> >> ie assuming non-robustness (which IMHO is virtually equivalent to >> assuming ultrafinitism - like Norm Wildberger's position). >> >> gives you convincing leverage >> >>> concerning consciousness relating to experiential outcome of some A/B >>> experiment, as the relation of selection is invariant for delays and >>> locations of reconstitution. >>> >>> It demonstrates an inconsistency between physical supervenience and >> computational supervenience, notably that physical supervenience >> entails that certain very simple computations, such as the replaying >> of a recording, will be conscious. >> >> This only works in a non-robust universe, however, a point that is >> often overlooked in treatments of this. >> > > So are you agreeing with my point that the world (being quantum) is so > complex that to take all the counterfactuals into account in the MGA > requires creating a whole simulated universe in which the "playback" > occurs, thus vitiating the reductio? > > Brent > I thought you taught me that Special Relativity provides playback as well as prediction, reference-frame dependent. Richard > > >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
