On 15 Apr 2015, at 09:26, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2015-04-15 9:19 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>:
On 15 Apr 2015, at 08:33, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2015-04-15 5:12 GMT+02:00 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>:
On 4/14/2015 9:47 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2015-04-14 18:40 GMT+02:00 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>:
On 4/13/2015 11:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
Le 14 avr. 2015 08:04, "Stathis Papaioannou" <stath...@gmail.com>
a écrit :
> Certainly some theories of consciousness might not allow
copying, but
> that cannot be a logical requirement. To claim that something is
> logically impossible is to claim that it is self-contradictory.
I don't see why a theory saying like I said in the upper
paragraph that consciousness could not be copied would be
selfcontradictory... You have to see that when you say
consciousness is duplicatable, you assume a lot of things about
the reality and how it is working, and that you're making a
metaphysical commitment, a leap of faith concerning what you
assume the real to be and the reality itself. That's all I'm
saying, but clearly if computationalism is true consciousness is
obviously duplicatable.
Quentin
In order to say what duplication of consciousness is and whether
it is non-contradictory you need some propositional definition of
it. Not just, an instrospective "well everybody knows what it is".
It seems that's what I was explaining... or are you answering to
Stathis ?
No, it's not clear to me what definition of consciousness you're
using. Are you supposing that two streams of thought which are
identical would constitute two different consciousness'es?
I have don't have to have one, I don't pretend anything about
consciousness, I'm saying Stathis does have one *to pretend*
consciousness is duplicable; and that his statement "consciousness
is duplicable" is rooted in a metaphysical commitment to one (o
r more) theorie(s) about reality, without that commitment
"consciousness is duplicable" has no meaning by itself and is not
an absolute truth... are you really reading what I write, or only
what you want to read ?
Consciousness is pure 1p view, and as such is not duplicable, nor
localizable. It is not in the brain, nor in the physical activity of
a brain, but in the (infinity) of the relevant number relations.
But we are used to ascribe consciousness to bodies (which don't
really exist), and so we can say in the local 3-1 view, that a
consciousness has been duplicated. That will just means that the
relative conditions in which that consciousness can manifest itself
have been duplicated, like there are infinitely multiplied and
distributed in arithmetic.
In fact if we refer to bodies, the 3p is here a 1p-plural-1p-
singular view, really, but this is not relevant (especially if the
discussion is on a point "before step 8/MGA)".
I don't remember the motivation of the discussion, to see if the
difference of terming is relevant or not.
As I'm trying to explain (and it really seems not obvious to others,
I'm certainly guilty of not making it clear) is that statement such
as "consciousness is duplicable..." or "consciousness is not
duplicable..." both are statement with unsaid theorie(s) about what
is reality and consciousness... without those unsaid theorie(s),
these statement by themselve have no meaning and even if those
theories are clearly explained, that can't make any of the statement
an eternal truth (as you have shown here, under your view, both
statements can be true depending on the point of view taken).
And what I disagree with Stathis principally, is the usage of
"miracles" or "magics" inside a "logical" argument, that's a
fallacy, using false can prove anything.
OK. In fact terms like miracle and magic also deserve clarification.
"Miracle" can be used for "rare but non illogical happening", and for
"illogical happenings". Most theologian agree that God is bounded by
logic (even Aristotle, but also Augustin, St-Thomas, ... well, all who
have still a bit of neoplatonism in their blood). Of course, once
institutionalized, reason is almost forbidden in the field, and
authoritative arguments buries the whole set of possible inquiries in
the domain.
Consciousness is pure 1p, and this is not duplicable. But we can say
that consciousness is duplicated in special situation, when the
conditions of its manifestation are locally duplicated: consciousness
is "3-1 duplicable" somehow. Sometimes a short terming can be allowed,
to avoid unnecessary complex presentations. I am not sure of the why
of your different with Stathis, as it does not impinge on the
reasoning so far, it seems to me.
Bruno
Quentin
Bruno
Quentin
Computationalism would say that a brain is duplicable, but as soon
as the copy had a different thought there would be two different
consciousnesses.
Brent
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-
l...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy
Batty/Rutger Hauer)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-
l...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy
Batty/Rutger Hauer)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
