> On 3 May 2019, at 16:10, cloudver...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > The general response here is that there has never existed a program that has > executed outside a computer. And computers are made of matter.
That is false. Programs have been discovered in arithmetic, like prime numbers. Computations are number relation (the sigma_1 one). “Computer” is ambiguous. In this list, I use it to refer to physical implementation of the universal number. Yet physical has to be, and is, explained in the phenomenology of the universal numbers. > > Now one can generalize "computer": There were things like the abacus and > slide rule, that executed "programs". Or one executes programs in the head > (so to speak). But this is the brain,. Assuming that brain exist primarily, but that begs the question. > Again, matter. Or one takes one's hand and a pencil or pen and executes a > program on a piece of paper. Again. all matter > > Now one can watch a movie (like 2001 with the HAL 9000) or read a book of > fiction where there is a program running on a some computer. But this is a > fictional story. > > One can imagine a program running on an imaginary computer, but this > imagining is all done in the brain. Matter. > > But give me an example of a program running in a "matter free" environment: > No brains, hands, pencils, computers, abacuses, slide rules, around. > > Is it like some ghost out on its own in some immaterial realm? That is explained in Gödel, despite he miss the notion of machine and computation, but the math is already there. Then it has been made explicit by all the logicians after Gödel. It is long to explain, because programming a universal number in arithmetic is lengthy. Let me give you just one example. How to implement a sequence of register containing the number 89 677 89 ? A typical way consists in using exponential, and the fundamental theorem of arithmetic which says that all number have a unique decomposition in prime. So, if p_i represents the its prime number, you can encode the sequence of register with content 89 677 89 by (p_1^89)*(p_2^677)*(p_3^89), i.e. (2^89)*(3^677)*(5^89). You can intuit that using such register can be realised by sequence of division, etc. Eventually, it can be shown that the full working of any universal number can be realised by number relations of that kind. This is made in details in all reasonable textbook in theoretical computer science. Bruno > > > @philipthift > > > > On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:27:35 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > One way to get around this is to hold that consciousness is associated with > the way information is processed. This is substrate independent - the fact > that a brain is physical is beside the point. You could implement a brain in > software, and insofar as the same kinds of information processing occur, it > would be conscious in the same kind of way. > > I find this idea compelling because it makes the link between brains and > consciousness without requiring matter, and provides a framework for > understanding consciousnesses of other kinds of machines. All that's > required is to assume there is something it is like for computation to occur. > > Terren > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:26 AM <cloud...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote: > > > On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 8:03:52 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > On 5/2/2019 4:55 PM, cloud...@gmail.com <> wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:37:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 5/2/2019 11:39 AM, cloud...@gmail.com <> wrote: >>> >>> Apparently matter is not "reducible" to just the physics a couple of >>> particles. >> >> Then you're not a materialist. You think there is matter plus something >> else, that everyone calls "mind", but you're going to call it "matter" and >> add it to everyone else's list of matter so you can still call yourself a >> materialist. >> >> Brent >> >> >> >> >> But everything reducing to the physics of particles is thought of as >> physicalism (not materialism): >> Physicalism and materialism >> >> Reductive physicalism >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductive_physicalism>...is normally assumed >> to be incompatible with panpsychism. Materialism >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism>, if held to be distinct from >> physicalism, is compatible with panpsychism insofar as mental properties >> > > What mental properties? intention? reflection? remembering? That's what I > mean by saying attributing "experience" to matter is an unprincipled > half-measure. > > Brent > > > Brains are matter, just as livers, legs, trees, tables, rocks, comets, > planets, stars, cockroaches, galaxies, bacteria .. are matter. > > Brains produce intentions, reflections, remembrances, ... . > > So (at least some) matter of the cosmos has psychical (mental) properties. > > The body+mind idea, the idea that mind is something separate from body, is > perhaps the worst idea ever invented. > > @philipthrift > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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