> On 23 Oct 2019, at 13:17, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 2:38:47 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:41:07 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 1:42:20 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 12:18:45 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 9:25:11 AM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote: > That's such a silly argument. This only proves there are interactions between > consciousnesses. > > On Tuesday, 22 October 2019 14:25:04 UTC+3, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > I think Samuel Johnson had a good reply to Bishop Berkeley on refuting > idealism, "If I kick this rock thusly," which Johnson did, "It then kicks > back." This is not a complete proof, but it works well enough FAPP. > > > It is not silly. It is empirical. If you are interested in some sort of firm > "mathy" type of proof, then I would suggest the burden is more upon you to > prove your case that idealism is true. I have no particular interest in the > subject to begin with, so I put the ball in your court. Prove your case. > > LC > > > > Empiricism cannot say whether it's (all) matter, consciousness, or numbers. > > What makes the latter two dismissible is they do not explain what we know of > our own consciousness - that it is finite in time and bounded in space. > > @philipthrift > > I am not saying "if I kick it it kicks back" means everything is matter. In > fact the total mass-energy of the universe is zero. However, it does lend > weight to the proposition there exists at least locally matter that is > external to mind. Matter does not conform to what my mind might otherwise > desire things to be. Statistical mechanics even shows that what we see as a > desired order is just one rather small macrostate in the energy surface of > phase space. Besides, our conscious lives are pretty fragile in the face of > things. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdf5EXo6I68 > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdf5EXo6I68> > > LC > > > Matter does not conform to what my mind might otherwise desire things to be. > > > "How did we ever get the notion of the mind as something distinct from the > body? Why did this bad idea enter our culture?" > > https://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/april13/rorty-041305.html > <https://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/april13/rorty-041305.html> > > @philipthrift > > I am not arguing for a dualism. If there is dualism between matter and mind, > then it appears that matter is more pervasive. If the two are the same in a > monism, or mind a manifestation of matter, then mind is most likely a subset > of matter. Arguing over this is really a sort of metaphysics that is not much > more fruitful than the proverbial argument over the number of angels dancing > on the head of a pin.
The “modern” version of that argument is “how many bits or qubits can you handle in some finite space-time volume. With mechanism, we get a monist immaterialist theory, and the physical reality get a non physical, yet mathematical, explanation/origin. It extends Darwin's idea that the human biology has an history and origin, for the physical reality, albeit not in a physical reality, but as appearances in the arithmetical reality “seen from inside”. There was an epoch you could be ostracised (to say the least) if you came up with the idea that the human have a terrestrial origin. Today we agree with drawing on this, but Darwin’s explanation (or type of explanation) does not work for consciousness. With Mechanism, we have: NUMBER explains CONSCIOUSNESS which explains the origin of the physical MATTER, which explains the origin of the physical human body and its local consciousness. Bruno > > LC > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f61636e4-e3d2-4adb-97da-413d8ce13ea7%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f61636e4-e3d2-4adb-97da-413d8ce13ea7%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/93642DC0-A693-4223-B424-F11091D02E16%40ulb.ac.be.
