On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 5:23 PM smitra <smi...@zonnet.nl> wrote: > On 09-08-2020 21:00, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 1:24 PM Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> _> You, as well as most of the media write ups are confusing "did > >> not prove a benefit" with "proved no benefit". _ > > > > I'm not confused at all. No study has proven that leeches have no > > benefit in the treatment of COVID-19, but there is also no > > statistically relevant evidence that it does, so scientists could more > > productively spend their time studying things other than leeches. I > > mean it's not as if there are no other promising leads. And this sort > > of thing is the rule not the exception, from cancer to aids to > > Alzheimer's disease to you name it the medical literature is cram full > > of examples of drugs and treatments that hinted in very early small > > scale studies that they might be beneficial but were later shown to be > > useless or even harmful in larger more careful studies. > > > > Hydroxychloroquine is not even a controversial drug as far as the > > scientific community is concerned, the opinion is almost universal > > that it's just like most new ideas in science, it didn't work out, and > > so it's time to move on to other things; The drug only becomes > > controversial when fascist presidents and nincompoop Fox pundits enter > > into the mix. > > > >>> a statistically powerful result were all late stage studies. > > > > Considered statistically powerful by people who don't understand > > statistics, and Humans don't have an intuitive ability to assess > > probabilities, we need to calculate them. For example: If AIDS is in > > 0.3% of the population and the false positive rate of an AIDS test is > > 1% and I take that test and test positive, is there a 99% probability > > that I really have AIDS? No, the chance would be 29.7%, > > (.003*[0.99/0.01]). > > > >>> _John treats HCQ like ESP, with no science behind it. _ > > > > Not in the early days of 4 or 5 months ago, back then it was > > reasonable to be hopeful about it, but those who hold onto a blind > > belief in HCQ and refuse to even modify it one bit even now after much > > more information about it has come in then yes, they're just as > > fanatical as the ESP nuts. They will never EVER be satisfied with a > > negative result, they will ALWAYS want another larger study. > > > >>> _ __in vitro studies clearly showed its anti-viral properties,_ > > > > If in vitro studies were all that mattered people would've stopped > > dying from cancer decades ago. > > > > John K Clark > > > > Another thing to keep in mind here is that only a small fraction of the > general public end up becoming severely ill, and that people with > underlying health issues such as obesity, diabetes etc. dominate the > group of people who are at risk of needing hospital care. If we assume > fir argument's sake that HCQ does have an effect when taken in the very > early stages, that effect would then be irrelevant to the vast majority > of healthy people. If you are obese then it could be helpful to you, but > simply losing weight would have a far greater effect. This is why in > Britain they are staring a campaign for people to lose weight. > > In general I'm rather skeptical for cures in the form of drugs for the > general healthy public. If modifying a biological mechanism would have a > benefit for the healthy population, then the question is why evolution > did not implement that modification? Usually when taking pills does help > for the general public, this is related to our modern lifestyles causing > certain deficiencies, like e.g. vitamin D deficiency. And we know that > being overweight, being vitamin D deficient, lack of exercise have > negative effects on the immune system: > > > https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-06-fat-cell-immune-response-obesity.html > > "When obesity occurs, a person's own fat cells can set off a complex > inflammatory chain reaction that can further disrupt metabolism and > weaken immune response—potentially placing people at higher risk of poor > outcomes from a variety of diseases and infections, including COVID-19." > > https://www.bbc.com/news/health-43308729 > > "Doing lots of exercise in older age can prevent the immune system from > declining and protect people against infections, scientists say. > > They followed 125 long-distance cyclists, some now in their 80s, and > found they had the immune systems of 20-year-olds. > > Prof Norman Lazarus, 82, of King's College London, who took part in and > co-authored the research, said: "If exercise was a pill, everyone would > be taking it. > > "It has wide-ranging benefits for the body, the mind, for our muscles > and our immune system." > > The research was published in the journal Aging Cell. > > Prof Janet Lord, director of the Institute of Inflammation and Ageing, > at the University of Birmingham, and co-author of the research, said: > "The immune system declines by about 2-3% a year from our 20s, which is > why older people are more susceptible to infections, conditions like > rheumatoid arthritis and, potentially, cancer. > > "Because the cyclists have the immune system of a 20-year-old rather > than a 70- or 80-year-old, it means they have added protection against > all these issues."" > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100307215534.htm > > > "In order for the specialized immune cells (T cells) to protect the body > from dangerous viruses or bacteria, the T cells must first be exposed to > traces of the foreign pathogen. This occurs when they are presented by > other immune cells in the body (known as macrophages) with suspicious > 'cell fragments' or 'traces' of the pathogen. The T cells then bind to > the fragment and divide and multiply into hundreds of identical cells > that are all focused on the same pathogen type. The sequence of chemical > changes that the T cells undergo enables them to both be 'sensitized to' > and able to deliver a targeted immune response. > > Professor Carsten Geisler from the Department of International Health, > Immunology and Microbiology explains that "when a T cell is exposed to a > foreign pathogen, it extends a signaling device or 'antenna' known as a > vitamin D receptor, with which it searches for vitamin D. This means > that the T cell must have vitamin D or activation of the cell will > cease. If the T cells cannot find enough vitamin D in the blood, they > won't even begin to mobilize. "" > > > Lot's of great information Saibal, thank you. I agree there are many measures we can do individually to lower our personal risk.
I have been supplementing with D3 since this began. I am surprised the media has not been pushing this more, given the widespread deficiencies generally. One study found something around a 10 - 20 fold reduction in COVID deaths (after controlling for age and other factors) between those that had normal levels of vitamin D and those who were deficient: https://emerginnova.com/patterns-of-covid19-mortality-and-vitamin-d-an-indonesian-study/ Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CA%2BBCJUir-Mku90EfKOweDxYWrmjf0Ef9EW2zt3Mz7ni0Makxaw%40mail.gmail.com.
