The map. Ultimately we're seeking the physicality underlying the correlations. AG
On Friday, November 8, 2024 at 1:49:48 AM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 11/7/2024 8:17 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 7, 2024 at 7:12:02 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > > On 11/7/2024 5:20 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 7, 2024 at 4:53:37 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > > On 11/7/2024 2:28 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 7, 2024 at 3:22:53 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > > On 11/6/2024 12:40 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, November 6, 2024 at 11:31:03 AM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 4:23 AM Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote: > > *> An effect between entangled pairs but no information sent? Doesn't make > sense. AG* > > > *It's weird but it does not produce a logical contradiction. Suppose you > and I have quantum entangled coins, I stay on earth but you get in your > Spaceship and travel at nearly the speed of light for a little over four > years to Alpha Centauri, then you slow down and start flipping your coin > and I do the same on Earth. We both write down a record of all the heads > and tails we got and both of us conclude that the sequences we got are > perfectly random. Then you get back in your spaceship and four years later > you're back home. And now that you're back we compare our lists of > "random" coin flips and we find that the two sequences are identical, we > both got the same "random" sequence.* > > *That's very weird but neither of us noticed anything was strange until > you got back, and that took over four years because Alpha Centauri is four > light years away. If we try to use our coins discern a message by Morse > code with heads meaning a dot and tails meaning a dash it won't work > because your coin will only come up the way you want it to 50% of the time. > You could of course force your coin to come up heads or tails, but if you > did that you would destroy the quantum entanglement because it is very > delicate, and then you would just have two ordinary unrelated coins. * > > > Two observers can't send information to each other because neither knows > what will come up in a coin flip if the outcome is modeled quantum > mechanically, that is irreducibly random , but each element of a pair of > entangled particles can send information to its partner, since if it > couldn't, they wouldn't be entangled. AG > > First of all you need to realize that "entangled particles" is just > shorthand. Particles aren't entangled. Some property of the particles is > entangled, e.g. spin or momentum or position. So in Hilbert space, instead > of there being two different vector components for the spin of A and the > spin of B, there is only one vector for the spin of both A and B. So Alice > can measure it and B can measure it. But neither can change or control the > measurement. It's random. > > Brent > > > Yes, I am aware of that. Alice and Bob can't send messages to each other. > But does either of the particles send anything to the other? That's the > issue. It's called an "effect". But an effect must have some actual > content, if it exists. AG > > The "content" is they share a vector in Hilbert space. > > Brent > > > Have you ever seen a vector in Hilbert space? AG > > If the photons hitting your eye weren't a vector in Hilbert space you > wouldn't see anything. > > Brent > > > Were people born before Hilbert blind? You're confusing the map from the > territory. AG > > Are directions and amplitudes map or territory? > > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/939207ad-4edd-462c-9f19-fb50d6aaf034n%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/939207ad-4edd-462c-9f19-fb50d6aaf034n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/c53159e9-2832-4b75-9638-81a4cbbf3c35n%40googlegroups.com.
