--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > As I have suggested about other believers in the
> > lack of free will here (and that they have failed
> > to reply to), if they are so convinced that there
> > is no free will, WHY are they working so hard to
> > convince others (whom they insist have no free will)
> > to change their minds and embrace the "no free will"
> > position?
> >
> > If Harris is correct, his thoughts on this matter
> > and his ability to decide for free will or against
> > it are not his own. The decision was made for him.
> >
> > He at no point had the ability to "choose what he
> > chose."
> >
> > If he is correct, all of the people he seems a bit
> > perturbed with for not understanding or agreeing
> > with his position *also* have no free will. Just
> > like him, they also at no point had the ability
> > to "choose what they chose."
> >
> > So why is he continuing to argue, as if they (or
> > *anyone* reading what he writes) had the free will
> > to choose to change their minds as a result of
> > reading it?
> >
> > Something in this scenario doth not compute.
>
> Really? (as in SNL "Really!!??") Are you suggesting that
> its only one of two discrete possibilities. Either: 1)
> one is totally independent of any outside or internal sub
> conscious forces makes decisions or 2) some entity makes
> the decisions and then tells him what to do? (I know
> "mother is at home", but is she calling all the shots?
> (Cut to old aspirin commercial "Mother! I would rather
> do it myself!!"))
>
> Do you consider your culture, family, education, training,
> career, to have any effect in molding, shaping or filtering
> your, or anyone's, thoughts as to what the "best thing" to
> do in any moment is?
>
> Are you, or anyone, conscious of every single normally (in
> we mere mortals) subconscious process that shapes our
> thoughts, impulses, motivations and desires?
>
> If not, then I suggest we do not have full free will -- and
> yet there is no "entity" that has made our decisions for us.
> Is it not true that some posters have no free in that they
> have not choice but to respond to your proddings?
>
> The degree of freewill that we have appears to be the issue:
> a) some, b) a little or c) none. Total Free will is not an
> option, IMO.
Cool. I have no desire to argue with you or to try to
convince you of anything. I merely commented on the
seeming disparity between the title of Harris' blog
post ("You Do Not Choose What You Choose") and his
behavior, which it seems to me consists of trying to
convince readers to *choose* the position he's advo-
cating. Bzzzzzzzt. Does not compute.
This strikes me as similar to the behavior of a friend
of mine. She's a total "Let Thy will be done" God freak.
She categorically *refuses* to make any life decisions
for herself, claiming that "God will do it all." But *at
the same time*, while professing to believe what she is
saying, she spends 90% of her time bitching and moaning
and complaining about the circumstances of her life.
Bzzzzzzt. Does not compute. Seems to me that if she
really believes what she claims to believe, then God
did *everything she is complaining about*, and that
she has no right to bitch.
I was suggesting that I have a similar Bzzzzzzt reaction
when seeing Harris claim that there is no free will and
no ability to choose, and yet arguing for several posts
now with others, seemingly in an attempt to get them to
choose. Bzzzzzzzzt.
As for the rest of your rap, I have no interest in talk-
ing the existence or non-existence of free will. To me
it's pure theory, and not relevant to my life. As I've
said before, my position is that I see no "up side" to
having or professing a belief that there is no free will.
And so far in all of these discussions, not a single
person has ever proposed such an "up side."
>From my pragmatic, everyday POV, I seem to have free will.
Therefore, I believe (pragmatically) that I do. To do so
makes my everyday behavior *consistent with* what I believe.
But for those who profess to believe that there is no free
will, they have admitted that while they may believe that,
they *act* as if they did have it. Their behavior is NOT
consistent with what they profess to believe. Cognitive
dissonance.
I experience no such cognitive dissonance. My behavior
(acting as if I have free will) is consistent with my
beliefs (that I have it). If it turns out that there
is no free will, as I have also said many times, No
Harm, No Foul. I cannot be held karmically responsible
for anything I did or failed to do, because I never
had the ability to choose to do or not do it in the
first place. By behaving in a manner consistent with
my beliefs, I get off scot-free, whether it turns out
that those beliefs are "true" in some cosmic sense
or not. :-)
To me the question of whether free will exists or not
on some theoretical level is a non-starter, something
that is not worth my time to ponder, and certainly not
worth my time to argue.
But you can argue about it if you want. If you have
the free will to do so, that is. Or, if whatever it
is that "chooses" for you wants you to. Me, I get to
do what I want. And at the end of my life, I *get
away with it*, either way. :-)
