Curtis, for me that "shift of attention" from one state of mind (i.e., from dissociative state to emotionally engaged state) doesn't occur; or, to the degree it occurs, there's still a fundamental "not doing", uninvolved, separateness that exists within which these shifts happen. So my experience matches some descriptions that Maharishi, and others, have characterized as resultant from spiritual practices and, consequently, valuable.
I endorse their value for me, too, and it's always puzzled me that you've found them to be less than desirable. What you've explained below re NLP's characterization of the dissociative state clarifies your position for me, as well as your experience during performance and its parallels with the surfing experience (and with similar portals like sex, teaching, and other highs). I'm a big fan of exalted experiences, too, but they seem to be just a version of the quotidian, different in degree but not in kind. One thing you've spoken about on more than one occasion, and something that got me thinking, was the idea that a lot of these states of mind are resultant to the simple process of "growing up" and becoming an adult. Looking around, there seems to be quite a few exceptions to that premise, but I do consider that wherever I am in the course, "The Meaning Of Life", it's likely that simply putting time and attention into the process may be the single, biggest factor in getting some answers. *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <curtisdeltablues@...> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "marekreavis" <reavismarek@> wrote: > > > > This (Curtis' paragraph below) is something worth discussing on this > > particular forum, for sure. > > > > Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human > > being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for extended > > periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi made many > > claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of meditation. Since > > then, many people acknowledge that they have experienced some or many or > > even all of what he said would result; I'd put myself somewhere in that > > spectrum, too. > > > > The "value" of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, though? > > Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does seem to > > confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get caught up in > > whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my experience, rather > > than diminish or drain any experience of joy or happiness, it seems to > > substantiate it. > > > > Isn't that (or something like that) what you experience when you are > > playing music -- a simultaneous separation and saturation in the > > expression? Isn't that also (to one degree or another) what you experience > > throughout the day? I know you've evaluated the dissociative state produced > > by meditation (as well as other means) as being undesirable and the > > rebranding of that/those state(s) as being "higher" states as basically > > wrong; but conceding that what those states of minds represent isn't known > > by any party, don't you feel that the resultant has value? > > > Thanks for picking up this ball Marek! This is the deeper interest I have > posting here, exploring this topic. And I have been evolving my view on this > through the years here. Let's see if I can clarify: > > 1. I believe that the state induced in meditation can be beneficial for some > people who lack the ability to step back from themselves and be less driven > by impulse. It is a basic cognitive skill that is discussed in NLP a lot. > Their model of the usefulness of this state has helped shape my thinking. > They see it as context dependent. They see a functional mind as being able > to shift from one perspective to another. Say you are being criticized. > Being able to separate yourself a bit allows you to compare what they are > saying with your own perspective to see if it is accurate,minimizing the > effect of your natural defensiveness. We used to practice it as at technique > and I find it really helpful. But if you get stuck in that dissociation you > miss out on the direct sensation of emotion which is better for say, making > love. (That is where thinking about baseball comes in!) > > 2. If you meditate or particularly round enough, you get stuck IMO in a > dissociative state and that gives rise to a lot of problems. The biggest one > is a decreased ability to distinguish your enhanced internal experience of > ideas with their epistemological reliability. People with this state > heightened, "experience" all sorts of things which I now theorize is a > breakdown in the internal and external vision wall. Our imagination take > wings literally and we can "see" angels. > > I am jumping around here in delight that you might pursue how you are > thinking of this these days. > > My performance state is a great reference because it represents what I now > believe is a way for me to trick my brain into serving up my unconscious > capabilities more directly. It is a fluid flow between conscious and > unconscious, but it is key that the silent part of my mind can't dominate to > work best. Sometimes I need to tweak it with some meditation, but the > biggest factor is the "need of the times". I am being facetious here but it > is the context that pulls out the state like when you are surfing. We are > doing these activities to draw out the state because it is really pleasurable > and it brings out our talents. we need to push ourselves in contexts that > force us into functioning at our peak. > > What passes for my lame version of spirituality these days, is trying to see > how I can access this state without an audience in front of me. Its funny > but most of my practice is in front of an imaginary audience, usually my > upcoming gig. By the time I hit the stage I have acted it out internally > many times and I feel this solidity and relaxation when I perform. But > because every audience is different, I am also challenged to react in the > moment, and this leads to some cool stuff. Same in public speaking, same > dynamic. When I am teaching I am floating in the same place of balance. > > I'm rambling here but please respond with your angle on this on or offline. > This is really important to me and I appreciate your picking it up for > discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm thrashing around here, more than being very clear; maybe someone else > > can help me out. > > > > *** > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > 2. When people do enough TM to shift into the kind of experiences > > > Maharishi describes ad higher states of consciousness, does it improve > > > anything that matters to us or is it just another POV? Ad billed it > > > gives deeper insight into reality. If this is the case can anything be > > > demonstrated that might indicate this or is it just a cool buzz for the > > > person with no added cognitive abilities that you could get from a few > > > bong hits at a Phish concert followed by a night of shrooms > > > > >>>> > > >
