Hey, Susan. I don't know if I could say anything about a "prior state". To whatever degree I have any insight into how mind and awareness develops and works, I'd say that there's a realization of a fundamental non-involved and continuous awareness. And, yes, an absence of sense of self that I once had, but it's difficult to pin down what anyone actually means by "self" anyway.
This awareness is supported, in no small measure, by the fortunate circumstances of my birth, living in a place and time in history characterized by unparalleled affluence on a large scale. Moreover, I'm smart enough and educated enough to have found a profession that pays a livable wage and get to live in an area of the country of singular beauty and grandeur. And, finally, I'm still young enough and healthy enough to challenge all my faculties in the most extraordinary activity of my life, surfing. But I don't think any term like enlightenment does anything but cause confusion. Maharishi's use of the term and his many variations of its characteristics and methods of attaining it did more to obfuscate than illuminate (in my opinion). In contrast, I find lots to recommend in Jill Bolte Taylor's description of her experiences, which regardless of the etiology, seem both valuable and realizable. http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <wayback71@...> wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "marekreavis" <reavismarek@> wrote: > > > > Curtis, for me that "shift of attention" from one state of mind (i.e., from > > dissociative state to emotionally engaged state) doesn't occur; or, to the > > degree it occurs, there's still a fundamental "not doing", uninvolved, > > separateness that exists within which these shifts happen. So my experience > > matches some descriptions that Maharishi, and others, have characterized as > > resultant from spiritual practices and, consequently, valuable. > > Question for you Marek: Do you ever miss the prior state? Would you go back > to it? Was it emotionally richer or more intense? > > It seems to me that there are 2 reasons to start something like TM or most > other types of meditation: health (emotional and physical) and/or > enlightenment. We all started with the CC, GC, UC model and any taste we had > of all that compelled us to continue. We were told it was the goal, and it > felt really good, too. Just about everyone here on FFL has put in tens of > thousands of hours in meditation, yoga, pranayam trying to get our brains to > function in that way. > > But most people these days are into health and feeling good. Enlightenment, > unless it is promoted via some organization like TM, is not on people's > radar. We are more into a medical/science model at this time. I think in > the future it will be really interesting to see what scientists come up with > when studying the brains of Enlightened people. They will nail down the > specifics of just how the process occurs and how the brain works to create > the awakened sense. I am sure there will discussion about whether this is > healthy brain functioning, or not. And who knows, maybe people will be able > to sample that state and decide if it is what they want to work towards. > > One more thing - I know Dr Pete, who used to post here, was adament that > enlightenment was not dependent on or a function of how the brain is working. > Not sure why he felt that way. I am just remembering that. > > > > > > I endorse their value for me, too, and it's always puzzled me that you've > > found them to be less than desirable. What you've explained below re NLP's > > characterization of the dissociative state clarifies your position for me, > > as well as your experience during performance and its parallels with the > > surfing experience (and with similar portals like sex, teaching, and other > > highs). I'm a big fan of exalted experiences, too, but they seem to be just > > a version of the quotidian, different in degree but not in kind. > > > > One thing you've spoken about on more than one occasion, and something that > > got me thinking, was the idea that a lot of these states of mind are > > resultant to the simple process of "growing up" and becoming an adult. > > Looking around, there seems to be quite a few exceptions to that premise, > > but I do consider that wherever I am in the course, "The Meaning Of Life", > > it's likely that simply putting time and attention into the process may be > > the single, biggest factor in getting some answers. > > > > *** > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "marekreavis" <reavismarek@> wrote: > > > > > > > > This (Curtis' paragraph below) is something worth discussing on this > > > > particular forum, for sure. > > > > > > > > Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a > > > > human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for > > > > extended periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi > > > > made many claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of > > > > meditation. Since then, many people acknowledge that they have > > > > experienced some or many or even all of what he said would result; I'd > > > > put myself somewhere in that spectrum, too. > > > > > > > > The "value" of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, > > > > though? Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does > > > > seem to confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get > > > > caught up in whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my > > > > experience, rather than diminish or drain any experience of joy or > > > > happiness, it seems to substantiate it. > > > > > > > > Isn't that (or something like that) what you experience when you are > > > > playing music -- a simultaneous separation and saturation in the > > > > expression? Isn't that also (to one degree or another) what you > > > > experience throughout the day? I know you've evaluated the dissociative > > > > state produced by meditation (as well as other means) as being > > > > undesirable and the rebranding of that/those state(s) as being "higher" > > > > states as basically wrong; but conceding that what those states of > > > > minds represent isn't known by any party, don't you feel that the > > > > resultant has value? > > > > > > > > > Thanks for picking up this ball Marek! This is the deeper interest I > > > have posting here, exploring this topic. And I have been evolving my > > > view on this through the years here. Let's see if I can clarify: > > > > > > 1. I believe that the state induced in meditation can be beneficial for > > > some people who lack the ability to step back from themselves and be less > > > driven by impulse. It is a basic cognitive skill that is discussed in > > > NLP a lot. Their model of the usefulness of this state has helped shape > > > my thinking. They see it as context dependent. They see a functional > > > mind as being able to shift from one perspective to another. Say you are > > > being criticized. Being able to separate yourself a bit allows you to > > > compare what they are saying with your own perspective to see if it is > > > accurate,minimizing the effect of your natural defensiveness. We used to > > > practice it as at technique and I find it really helpful. But if you get > > > stuck in that dissociation you miss out on the direct sensation of > > > emotion which is better for say, making love. (That is where thinking > > > about baseball comes in!) > > > > > > 2. If you meditate or particularly round enough, you get stuck IMO in a > > > dissociative state and that gives rise to a lot of problems. The biggest > > > one is a decreased ability to distinguish your enhanced internal > > > experience of ideas with their epistemological reliability. People with > > > this state heightened, "experience" all sorts of things which I now > > > theorize is a breakdown in the internal and external vision wall. Our > > > imagination take wings literally and we can "see" angels. > > > > > > I am jumping around here in delight that you might pursue how you are > > > thinking of this these days. > > > > > > My performance state is a great reference because it represents what I > > > now believe is a way for me to trick my brain into serving up my > > > unconscious capabilities more directly. It is a fluid flow between > > > conscious and unconscious, but it is key that the silent part of my mind > > > can't dominate to work best. Sometimes I need to tweak it with some > > > meditation, but the biggest factor is the "need of the times". I am > > > being facetious here but it is the context that pulls out the state like > > > when you are surfing. We are doing these activities to draw out the > > > state because it is really pleasurable and it brings out our talents. we > > > need to push ourselves in contexts that force us into functioning at our > > > peak. > > > > > > What passes for my lame version of spirituality these days, is trying to > > > see how I can access this state without an audience in front of me. Its > > > funny but most of my practice is in front of an imaginary audience, > > > usually my upcoming gig. By the time I hit the stage I have acted it out > > > internally many times and I feel this solidity and relaxation when I > > > perform. But because every audience is different, I am also challenged to > > > react in the moment, and this leads to some cool stuff. Same in public > > > speaking, same dynamic. When I am teaching I am floating in the same > > > place of balance. > > > > > > I'm rambling here but please respond with your angle on this on or > > > offline. This is really important to me and I appreciate your picking it > > > up for discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm thrashing around here, more than being very clear; maybe someone > > > > else can help me out. > > > > > > > > *** > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > 2. When people do enough TM to shift into the kind of experiences > > > > > Maharishi describes ad higher states of consciousness, does it > > > > > improve anything that matters to us or is it just another POV? Ad > > > > > billed it gives deeper insight into reality. If this is the case can > > > > > anything be demonstrated that might indicate this or is it just a > > > > > cool buzz for the person with no added cognitive abilities that you > > > > > could get from a few bong hits at a Phish concert followed by a night > > > > > of shrooms > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >
