I contacted a chemical engineer I used to work with (I was just a computer monkey) and we did indeed use a lot of natural gas to fire various things and also to produce hydrogen. The hydrogen was used in a process to remove sulfur from diesel.
So sorry, your real point that refineries consume a lot of natural gas is of course correct. I'll shut up now. On Feb 29, 2012, at 7:01 PM, q...@aol.com wrote: > David -- > > Thanks for your comment. I suppose I should have been both more specific and > more vague. It is sometimes an "input", not an "ingredient". Steam cracking, > which sometimes uses LPG, appears not to be necessary for gasoline > production, but it is useful for other hydrocarbons. > > Please excuse my speculations. I have not worked in a refinery, but rather in > the refined confines of energy analysis, which may explain some of my inexact > language. I welcome all corrections. > > - Claiborne - > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Mirly <mi...@comcast.net> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 4:10 pm > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: A Good Question - Should the United > States join OPEC? > > True, refineries use an enormous amount of electricity. > > But my point was that natural gas is not an ingredient in the production of > gasoline itself. > > If electricity generated by natural gas and then used by oil refineries was > the > point of the original post then I missed that. > > At the refinery I worked at, we built a coke gasification unit to generate > our > own electricity. 40 Mw. > > > On Feb 29, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Parks, Raymond wrote: > > > Heaters/furnaces/burners. > > > > They can be electric, either off-site or co-gen, or they can use waste > product. However, natural gas is the most common. > > > > Ray Parks > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David Mirly [mailto:mi...@comcast.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:26 PM > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States > join OPEC? > > > > I'm not sure this statement is correct…"natural gas is an input into > > gasoline > refining (cracking the hydrocarbons)" > > > > I don't think natural gas and crude oil refining typically, if ever, > intersect. A crude oil refinery (which, of course, makes gasoline among > other > things) has only crude oil as it's main input. > > > > Now refineries differ from one another greatly in size and capabilities but > > I > have never heard of natural gas being used in the gasoline manufacture > process. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:55 AM, q...@aol.com wrote: > > > >> Greetings, all -- > >> > >> "Gasland" is on my list, but in the meantime, I know that natural gas is > >> an > input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons) and with natural gas > at > (artificially?) low prices, our overall cost for refining gasoline in the US > is > competitive worldwide. We're also the biggest user of gasoline (the fuel mix > in > other countries focuses more on diesel), which means we have competitively > priced refined gasoline in general, and a bit of extra supply in particular > at > the moment. The annual switchover of winter to summer gasoline has been > complicated by some scheduled maintenance and shut-downs at various > refineries, > leading to a more pronounced annual spike than usual. Oh, and there's the > Straits of Hormuz thing... > >> > >> My $0.02, > >> > >> - Claiborne Booker - > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Hugh Trenchard <htrench...@shaw.ca> > >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > >> Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 10:12 am > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? > >> > >> Thanks for responding. Of course with natural gas, the first thing comes > >> to > my mind is "Gasland'. But I suppose if some ot those environmental issues > can > be brought under control, natural gas seems like it will be a big economic > driver for a while. > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Joshua Thorp > >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:01 PM > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? > >> > >> This sounds right to me. There is a lot of finger wagging at Iran for not > having domestic capacity for petroleum refinement even though they are a > crude > exporter. So I guess capacity works both ways. The other thing I know is > currently a hot topic is natural gas production. I believe the US has > increased > its production quite a bit lately and is likely to have a lot more in the > future. > >> > >> > >> On Feb 28, 2012, at 8:40 PM, Hugh Trenchard wrote: > >> > >>> Just as a brief follow up, it seems to me one of the major factors in > >>> this > is that U.S. refining capacity has increased so that there is less need to > import refined petroleum products. I haven't researched this in any detail > and > I stand to be corrected on all my assertions, but it seems to me it's not as > though there are any new sources of US domestic supply or significant > increase > in technological ability to extract previously hard to obtain oil, and likely > only marginal reduction in demand. There may be some, but my thought is the > hype > on this is rather misleading. Again I don't have the figures, but my guess > is > that the vast majority of US crude imports likely still come from Canada, > Mexico, and other western hemisphere nations, which the U.S. refining > companies > refine and re-sell as petroleum products, both for domestic use and to export > abroad. > >>> > >>> The link below shows some of the definitions used in the petroleum/fuels > industry. From my skeptical standpoint, the hype could mislead the American > public toward a false sense of security. I suppose if it stimulates the > economy, then that's good, but if it gets people guzzling more gas, then it's > really just a fool's game. > >>> > >>> http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/TblDefs/pet_move_imp_tbldef2.asp > >>> > >>> From the link: "Petroleum products are obtained from the processing of > >>> crude > oil (including lease condensate), natural gas, and other hydrocarbon > compounds. > Petroleum products include unfinished oils, liquefied petroleum gases, > pentanes > plus, aviation gasoline, motor gasoline, naphtha-type jet fuel, kerosene-type > jet fuel, kerosene, distillate fuel oil, residual fuel oil, petrochemical > feedstocks, special naphthas, lubricants, waxes, petroleum coke, asphalt, > road > oil, still gas, and miscellaneous products." > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Russ Abbott > >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > >>> Cc: Hugh Trenchard > >>> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 7:47 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? > >>> > >>> We exported more petroleum products, not more oil. We are still net oil > importers. > >>> > >>> -- Russ Abbott > >>> _____________________________________________ > >>> Professor, Computer Science > >>> California State University, Los Angeles > >>> > >>> Google voice: 747-999-5105 > >>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/ > >>> vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ > >>> _____________________________________________ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Owen Densmore <o...@backspaces.net> > >>> wrote: > >>> From > >>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/03/us-becomes-net-exporter-o_n_857085.html > >>> While some Americans cut back on driving as gas prices soar, the U.S. has > become a net exporter of fuel for the first time in nearly 20 years. > >>> According to data from the Energy Department,starting last November -- > >>> with > the exception of the month of January -- the U.S. began exporting more > petroleum > products than it imported. > >>> > >>> This is not the source I got the idea from, its been in the news quite a > >>> bit > lately, this is just the first google hit I tried. > >>> > >>> The theory is that between the recession (thus less use of fuel, both > >>> supply > side and demand), conservation/efficiency, and more recent hi-tech oil/gas > exploitation (horizontal drilling), the US consumption has dropped and the > production has increased, causing a net surplus. > >>> > >>> It certainly is surprising. > >>> > >>> -- Owen > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Hugh Trenchard <htrench...@shaw.ca> > >>> wrote: > >>> Where did you see that the US is now a net oil exporter? The attachments > below are 2008 and 2009, but I suspect the picture hasn't changed much since > then (US imports 75% of its oil for consumption). I believe I saw reference > to > "potential exporter" in the NY Times article. > >>> > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/07/26/GR2008072601599.html > >>> > >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdsdigital/4056035804/ > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Owen Densmore > >>> To: Complexity Coffee Group > >>> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 9:14 AM > >>> Subject: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? > >>> > >>> Now for something completely different: > >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/opinion/sunday/friedman-a-good-question.html > >>> Basically whether or not the US should join OPEC now that it is a net oil > exporter. > >>> > >>> Insane as it sounds, there is some reason in the discussion. > >>> > >>> -- Owen > >>> > >>> > >>> ============================================================ > >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > >>> > >>> > >>> ============================================================ > >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > >>> > >>> > >>> ============================================================ > >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > >>> > >>> ============================================================ > >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > >> > >> ============================================================ > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > >> ============================================================ > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > >> http://www.friam.org > >> ============================================================ > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
