Well see, here we go again. To which I come back again with the point of view that any philosophy, or religion that is human-centric in nature as both Christianity or Islam are, is inherently bad. A narrow world view, enabled, promoted, and enforced with even narrower strict fundamentalist practitioners is by definition destructive.
There can be no greater moral deficiency than having been born with an intellect and then refusing to use it. Blind faith is exactly that: blind. "Faith" in religion is defined as having accepted, unquestioningly, what someone else has told you is the one true way. I personally have no respect for religious faith. I respect people's right to chose to live that way, right up to the point where they attempt to influence how I live and think. But not their decision to unquestioningly commit to a dogma. Religion, because it requires "faith" to become a subscriber, is inherently bad. And as long as we're on the subject, if religion is bad for the reasons described above, then the opposite of religion is cosmology: the science of trying to *understand* the universe rather than attempting to explain it away with fairy tales. --Doug On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Victoria Hughes <victo...@toryhughes.com>wrote: > > *Religion is not inherently bad. *It is the use of it for mundane power > that is the problem. > All religious traditions began with a prophet / visionary / mystic who > urged tolerance, peace and self-awareness. Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha... In > most cases, that person's initial followers began to leverage their own > closeness and supposed 'superior understanding' to that original figure to > justify behaviour that benefited their mundane activities. > > Every religion has gone through this. Every creed of any kind has gone > through this. The challenge is our use of belief. > > Nick could speak to this too: there are developmental lines in the > psychology of individuals, groups, nations, tribes, etc: and these will use > powerful innate tools (like the human need to believe in something) for > different purposes, depending on their development. > > And there is nothing inherently wrong or flawed in the things in which > people embed their beliefs. Science, truth, the divine, all those have > positive beneficial elements. Again, it is the use of those concepts as > tools to persuade others into actions that destroy that is the problem. > > Self-awareness in all this is the key. > > Tory > > On Sep 14, 2012, at 10:41 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote: > > One semi-final note from me about culture and religion: I lived in Libya > for a year in 1976 when I was a consultant to Occidental Petroleum. > I traveled extensively between Tripoli, Benghazi, and several points about > 900 miles southeast of Tripoli in the northern tip of the Sahara during > that year. I quickly learned that the culture of the Arabic half of Libya > (as compared to the Berber Bedouin culture that comprises the eastern half > of the country) is dominated by the Islamic religion. You cannot separate > them. Religion is interwoven into every aspect of their culture. Any > attempt to exclude the impact of religion on their culture will fail. > > --Doug > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Douglas Roberts <d...@parrot-farm.net>wrote: > >> Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen. >> >> There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting >> "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats >> because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion. >> >> And this is not about religion? >> >> I don't see it. >> >> Or you don't see it. >> >> What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this >> particular issue. >> >> --Doug >> >> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore <o...@backspaces.net>wrote: >> >>> I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all. The question is >>> of groups and institutions. >>> >>> When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect >>> the entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend? >>> >>> When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at >>> Georgia Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes did so. >>> Many NRA members also speak up about the extreme position the organization >>> takes. Examples abound. And yes, I consider this a Complexity domain, >>> much like Miller's Applause model. >>> >>> Isn't this possibly a cultural issue? Possibly regional? The largest >>> Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the middle east, >>> its Indonesia. They do not appear to have this issue. >>> >>> So my question stands as Kofi stated: >>> "Where are the leaders? Where is the Majority? Nobody speaks up." >>> NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which the >>> religion lies. >>> >>> And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has nothing to >>> do with speaking out against injustice. It is not a religious issue, but a >>> civic, cultural one. >>> >>> -- Owen >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Doug Roberts >> drobe...@rti.org >> d...@parrot-farm.net >> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins >> <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> >> 505-455-7333 - Office >> 505-670-8195 - Cell >> >> > > > -- > Doug Roberts > drobe...@rti.org > d...@parrot-farm.net > http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins > <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-670-8195 - Cell > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > -- Doug Roberts drobe...@rti.org d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell
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