Hi Nick, Yes, I do, of course, remember this, but I keep on thinking that something is being overlooked. Your writing seems fine to me --but I'll have to parse it and think about it before I give a more thoughtful response.
Cheers, John ________________________________________ From: Friam [friam-boun...@redfish.com] on behalf of Nick Thompson [nickthomp...@earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 3:33 PM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Subjectivity and intimacy John, What I used to say, when you knew me back at Clark, is that MY consciousness is the slice that is cut through the world by MY behavior. This is the New Realist view, laid out by Holt in the early 20th century. A slightly different way of saying this is that I am just (= am exactly, and only) a point from which the world is seen. You remember "I am an extentionless dot." It's laid out in the paper I attached. Since coming to Santa Fe, I have come more under the influence of Peirce. For Peirce, everything that is real arises from the stream of human experience. Each of us parses that stream into subject and object through processes of inference. What is subjective, on this account, is just as much a cognitive achievement as what is objective. What we take to be "inner" is just features of our stream of experience that do not necessarily coincide with the reported experience of others or future experiences of our own. Dreams and hallucinations are experiences that don't, in the long run, pan out. My private world is just those parts of my experience that, in some sense, move with me. I am sorry. Those sentences only an author's mother could love. Best a toothache and hydrocodone would allow. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of John Kennison Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 2:26 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Subjectivity and intimacy I think Russ is raising an important point. It seems that Nick is saying that consciousness is something that is external. But, assuming we accept that view, some of a person's consciousness may be out there to only a small group of close friends. Could this be what is called intimate knowledge of that consciousness? --John ________________________________________ From: Friam [friam-boun...@redfish.com] on behalf of Russ Abbott [russ.abb...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 12:32 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Subjectivity and intimacy Intimacy is not necessarily about sex, but it is also not about just about knowing something about someone that isn't generally known, e.g., where the person went to elementary school or her mother's maiden name. It's more than just being able to answer the sorts of questions web sites ask as a way to establish one's identity. Intimacy has to do with the kinds of things that are known, in particular with knowing about the subjective experience of another person. At least that's how I would describe it -- and that's why I raised the question. On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 3:39 PM Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net<mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>> wrote: Dear John and Russ, Well, you question is an example of it self. Who is best qualified to explain the basis of Nick's denial of subjectivity? Is this a question about aetiology: I.e., the causal history of Nick's coming to deny subjectivity? Or is it a question of what rational arguments Nick might make for his denial of subjectivity. Note that there is nothing particularly private about either of those forms of the question. FRIAM could get to work on answering them and Nick could stand aside and wonder at the quality and perspicacity of your answers. My own most recent and condensed and approachable attempt to answer both versions of the question can be found in the manuscript that is attached. I can't find cc of the published vsn at the moment. I will think about the intimacy issue. I think it's about having some others who know things about you that are not generally known. I would argue that when you get into bed with somebody naked, it's a metaphor. But then, I am old. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf Of John Kennison Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 2:30 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Subjectivity and intimacy One thing I wonder about (or perhaps have forgotten) in this discussion and Nick's denial is what the denial is based on. Is the absence of subjectivity supposed to be a scientific fact? If so, we should be discussing the experimental foundations of this fact. I have read of some experiments which seem to indicate that subjectiviity is not exactly what we (or what I) used to think it is --but which do not seem to disprove subjectivity. --John ________________________________________ From: Friam [friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] on behalf of Russ Abbott [russ.abb...@gmail.com<mailto:russ.abb...@gmail.com>] Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 3:27 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: [FRIAM] Subjectivity and intimacy We've had discussions on and off about subjectivity -- with me getting frustrated at Nick's denial thereof (if I understood him correctly). It occurred to me recently that intimacy is defined -- as I understand it -- in terms of subjectivity, i.e., the sharing of one's (most private) subjective experiences with another. I'm wondering what Nick thinks about this and whether anyone else has something to say about it. In particular, if there is no such thing as subjective experience, does that imply in your view that the same goes for intimacy? ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
