To me "meta" just means constructors in type space. https://richarde.dev/papers/2012/singletons/paper.pdf
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, July 5, 2024 4:48 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
I feel like y'all have lost an important part of the conversation, stemming
from your invocation of multi-modal interaction. Whether we start with only 5
modes (see, smell, taste, hear, feel) or a very high dimensional one (including
all the various signals across the various membranes (humidity, heat,
absorption of chemicals through the skin, intake of exobiotics, etc.) each
dimension can support a derivation (a meta-*: meta-sight, meta-taste, etc.) in
a "linear" way. And each dimension can be fused in an n-ary function
(f(taste,smell), g(sight,feel), h(hear, see), i(taste, smell, feel), etc.).
Oversimplifying this into aware versus meta-aware is going to lead you down a
primrose path. Even if you admit the combinatorial explosion of multi-modal
derivation and re-derivation of higher and higher order functions, you still
have to include the fact that the functions operate at various rates of
interaction with each other and the environment. And that the "environment" of
each function is co-constructed by all the other functions, as well as the
world outside the organism.
And even if you admit that, these orders may not complete. The ordering may be
partial, where for example an Operator, O, might operate over a zeroth order
signal from the environment combined with a 2nd order derivation. E.g.
O{taste, f(taste), g(f²(taste))), where f²() is something like f() applied
twice either in time (like a wine that changes as you swish it in your mouth)
or space (like a food that has chemicals inducing both salty and sweet).
On 7/5/24 12:18, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's own
> awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans have.
> As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant in a
> dialogue from Plato...
>
> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the essence
> of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to describe
> by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive things
> differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than the
> perception of oneself?
>
> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/
>
>
> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an information
> feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the orbits of a
> strange attractor.
>
> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors
>
>
> -J.
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com>
> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
> Thought
>
> ,
>
> Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving." So, can
> I define some new terms, tentatively, /per explorandum/ ? Let's call
> acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness". Allowing this definition, we
> certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware. Lets define meta-awareness as
> acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, am I correct in assuming that
> you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and that you think that the
> cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am? And further that you think
> that meta-awareness requires consciousness?
>
> Nick
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net
> <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:
>
> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its
> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and
> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of
> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language
> which only humans have ( and LLMs now )
>
> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/
>
> <https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/>
>
> -J.
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com
> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
> Thought
>
> Jochen,
>
> /I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your cat
> is conscious. If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise. I had a
> facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether he was conscious and he
> denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for
> consciousness.
> /
> /
> /
> /So. Is your cat connscious?
> /
> /
> /
> /Nick
> /
--
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