Thanks, Harry. I do hope a genuine libertarian comes forward. There's one way to make sure that the act of voting does not imply consent: spoil your ballot. I've done that several times.
Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Brad McCormick, Ed.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] Re: Expediency not responsibility (was Re: US not an Empire) > Ed, > > Libertarians have a take on this. Not the Party, presumably, but the > philosophic types (who no doubt infuriate their party. > > They say the act of voting implies consent to the result. In effect, you've > joined the system and are stuck with it. > > If a libertarian on the list can better describe this point of view, please > do so. It certainly seems to me to have merit. > > Harry > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Ed wrote: > > >Brad, I knew I was going to get into deep trouble with this one. You'll > >note that as a precaution I called it a "thorny question". I don't have > >many answers, but I do feel that if Canada had joined the "coalition of the > >willing", there would have been hell to pay. This suggests to me that my > >democratically elected government keeps its ear pretty close to the ground. > >I know that on many other issues my government will or will not take action > >because it senses the popular mood. It's an osmotic process which does not > >always work, but does quite a lot of the time. Pollsters help. > > > >I don't know if ordinary citizens should be responsible for their leaders > >war crimes. I've read Daniel Goldhagen's "Hitler's Willing Executioners", > >which argues that the Holocaust was the product of how Germans thought about > >Jews and that all Germans, not only Hitler, had to bear the guilt. But then > >you can't try everybody in Germany as a war criminal. Someone has to take > >the rap, as Milosovic is for the behavior of the Serbs in Kosovo. > > > >I would draw the line when it comes to leaders like Stalin. Ordinary Soviet > >citizens could not be held responsible for what he did. He was beyond their > >control. I'd say the same in the case of Saddam and ordinary Iraqis. > > > >However, in the case of a modern free democratic state, I would still say > >that citizens have to take responsibility for what their governments do. > >They can vote, they can talk to their representatives, they can protest and > >they can use the courts. They can join and support organizations which can > >take the government on. If they do everything in their power to stop the > >government from doing something stupid and the government still does it, > >they can feel exonerated. But, on major issues, unless they are willing to > >go that far, democracy becomes meaningless. I'd like to think that isn't > >happening, but have to concede that maybe it is. > > > >Ed > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Brad McCormick, Ed.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Cc: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 1:22 PM > >Subject: Re: [Futurework] Re: Expediency not responsibility (was Re: US not > >an Empire) > > > > > > > Ed Weick wrote: > > > > Keith, what we're into here is the thorny question of the extent to > >which > > > > the people of a modern democracy are responsible for the commitments > >their > > > > leaders make on their behalf. IMHO, they are responsible, > > > [snip] > > > > > > WHat could this possibly mean? How could it > > > be operationalized? > > > > > > If Bush (or the U.S. military, etc.) commit a > > > war crime, should *I* be tried along with > > > the likes of Goering and Speer (or even Kissinger and > > > O. North)? Even if I voted for Gore (or Nader)? > > > > > > Should I be made to pay reparations for what > > > they did? I barely make enough money to have > > > a moderate life as it is. > > > > > > How can powerless individuals be held accountable for > > > the actions of their "representatives"? I called > > > Senator Clinton's office to try to get some help with > > > something entirely patriotic and I was given the > > > brushoff. > > > > > > *Now* ! There *is* a way citizens can make a > > > difference, but I doubt it'w what you had in > > > mind. Timothy McVeigh made more diference > > > than most ordinary citizens. > > > > > > I think the ontological status of the individual > > > person in mass society is a profound problem (not > > > really, since each individual soon enough is dead, and > > > as Don Quixote observed: > > > > > > There is no memory which time does not efface, > > > ANd no pain to which death does not bring an end. > > > > > > So what?). > > > > > > I think "the Scandanavian model", and the conclsions > > > of the study _Work in America_ which the Nixon > > > Administration comissioned, which also > > > suggested the desirability of greater > > > worker participation in work group self-management > > > would at least begin to try to turn the juggernaut > > > around. > > > > > > But maybe, by "people", you are not referring to individual > > > human beings, but to that quasi-real entity "the American > > > people", who are everybody in general and nobody > > > in particular? That would remind me of when galaxies > > > "collide": such a collision does not imply that even > > > a single individual star from one galaxy shashes > > > into a star from the other galaxy -- but the two > > > galaxies, nonetheless, can be so drastically > > > upheaved that it no longer is possible to > > > say that either galaxy continues to exist. > > > Or they can pass thru each other like ghosts > > > crosing paths, perhaps? > > > > > > In what ways do you propose I am responsible for > > > what the U.S. government does? What do you > > > want me to do about it? (Please substitute > > > yourself and your government in the preceding > > > two sentences, unless you are a high government oficial, > > > in which case you can probably find some good reason why > > > you are not responsible for whatever happens). > > > > > > I find it very discouraging to be a "nobody", but > > > I don't see what I can do. Maybe you can illuminate me? > > > > > > \brad mccormick (transcendental subjectivity is not > > > necesarily political agency) > > **************************************************** > Harry Pollard > Henry George School of Social Science of Los Angeles > Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042 > Tel: (818) 352-4141 -- Fax: (818) 353-2242 > http://home.comcast.net/~haledward > **************************************************** > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 8/28/2003 > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
