On 27-Sep-08, at 9:05 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
Unfortunately a typical response from you. Guess there's no point in
even trying..
Where the line of reasoning is unsound and shows a cavalier disregard
for users there would be no point.
I am a practical person above all else, and I listen and do where it
makes sense. I didn't make a huge fuss while people were hurling
insults at Maven developers and the PMC about the PGP nonsense, I had
someone implement a solution and now it's done. There is full support
in the new artifact/transport layer called Mercury for on the fly
generation and validation of PGP keys. A rework was being done anyway,
not hard to add.
The argument about redistribution where the license already clearly
embodies the policy is what I find inane. The practical solution to
that is that I've asked Maven PMC member to read up on this list and
hope to have a vote next week about what our stand is on third party
policies which contravene distribution rights provided by an
artifact's license. Whether that be restricting distribution or the
addition of requirements. I really don't want to get into the policy
business because if we set the precedent of making an exception for
the Apache Incubator it will never end. The best I think we can do is
follow the law. If you want a different distribution policy for
incubating artifacts or have additional requirements then make an
addendum to the license.
If the decision is to allow third party policy to alter standard
behavior then the onus will be on the Maven developers to implement a
extension point by which you can execute your policy. The onus will be
on policy creators to implement the policy enforcement. If we allow
these changes then the Maven developers cannot be responsible for
implementing policy enforcement for everyone that asks. That just
doesn't scale and it's not our job. And we will also need help with
development resources to ensure that policies can't easily be knocked
out and circumvented which will require testing and I assume all those
in favor here will be completely willing to help implement and test
these policy enforcement mechanisms.
If the decisions is not allow policy to alter the rights of the
already defined license, then we sync everything. Life goes on.
-- dims
On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
On 27-Sep-08, at 7:46 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
Jason,
Exactly why in previous discussions i already asked..."Can the maven
folks provide another way to do this?" (not showing disclaimers
necessarily, something that the user has to do one time works too.
Example: apt-get and keys)
We could do anything, but I'm not implementing pop ups. But you can.
On a download event the build could stop and make people read "An
ode to the
Incubator: How important we are, and how like children you all
are". Or we
could make them listen to that enduring audio classic: "Did someone
in the
incubator just make something up that no one has ever heard of
before?" That
one always makes me laugh (cry). Maybe we can humor the users in
the hopes
they don't get pissed off with us because we intentionally made
things
harder then they have to be.
I'll hope that people rely on the same tool that keeps them from
sniffing
the ends of loaded shotguns, or bathing with toasters. That would
be the
brain.
-- dims
On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
On 27-Sep-08, at 7:03 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
Am asking because, the way the situation is being portrayed is
that
anyone using maven is totally unable to use the incubator
artifacts...that's wrong.
It's just amazingly inconvenient.
Take the 10 minutes (and that's a conservative number) that every
user
goes
through groping around trying to figure out how setup the
repositories
and
multiply that by 5k (which is not unreasonable for something as
popular
as
JSecurity) and now multiply that by the number of projects and
we're
literally getting into man years of wasted time. To consciously
inflict
this
on people when it's not necessary is exacting a serious amount of
damage.
Every user who can't build something here as a first time user is
going
to
make their first experience a bad one.
For us to pontificate here about how we should be protecting a
generally
intelligent user base while wasting man years of users' valuable
time to
me
is wrong.
thanks,
dims
On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 6:46 PM, Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
Jukka,
I see where you are going with this. But what i cannot for the
life of
me understand is why adding a tiny snippet of xml to project
B's pom
is so objectionable (adding another repo)? No one has yet
answered
that question for me.
thanks,
dims
On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Jukka Zitting
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Hi,
On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
I know...hence my VOTE was what it was.
So my questions go out to people who opposed the proposed policy
change:
1) Is it OK for project A to bundle the incubating dependency?
2) If yes, why should things be more complex for project B?
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder, Apache Maven
jason at sonatype dot com
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Simplex sigillum veri. (Simplicity is the seal of truth.)
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----------------------------------------------------------
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jason at sonatype dot com
----------------------------------------------------------
Simplex sigillum veri. (Simplicity is the seal of truth.)
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happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will
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and sit softly on your shoulder ...
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