At 08:24 AM 9/2/2010, Kim Lingo wrote:
I don't think we'll have to worry about seeing this product. If
there really was a legitimate product out there, the "inventor"
would have taken a more professional sales-oriented approach. He
(I'm assuming it was a he) said he wanted to make a good living
selling it to blind people. You do that by showing how your product
is better than the other one, not by slamming the other one. If it
really is that good, it will sell itself. Since we haven't really
seen that, as us lawyers like to say "res ipsa loquitur" (The thing
speaks for itself" That's a concept usually in negligence cases,
but I think is equally applicable here.
Kim Lingo
At 11:38 PM 9/1/2010, you wrote:
If you have a new product, that might even set a new standard in
screen reading technology, I am sure a lot of the users on this
list will welcome that. Yet, to attack your competitors, is never a
good ice breaker. And, just in this token, how often do we see
people on the list, 'backing up' their statement with a down-rush
on Jaws or other screen readers. I find this attitude rather
anoying. There is never gonna be such a thing as a perfect
solution. Simply because, there is too many users, with too many
different soft- and hardware setups, and way too many needs to be
cared for fully. If you feel a given software works fine, go ahead
and let the community know, but don't rush on the alternatives, or
those who want to benefit from the functionality of the competitors.
And, giving a ton of meaningless attacks on GW, without even
letting people get their hand on your software? Hmm! What do you
think you will get from that? Everyone could pop in here, claiming
they had solved all the disasters of the blind world. That only
takes the time of writing the message. And, everyone could have
someone put out an article or three on the net, that tells how
WONDERFUL a software this is. Well, it doesn't back up anything,
long as it is mere words. So far, I didn't even see you tell us
step-by-step how to really work your software, and compare that to
how it is handled in Window-Eyes. If anyone should bother looking
at your software, such a 'real' comparison, I guess, would make
more sense - far more sense - than simply kick, slap, and jump on
an already well-established technology. Be as it will, your
software might be great. And, if it really prove itself to increase
accessibility, nothing would be better. But then, a meek attitude,
would bring you far deeper into the community. You know, if people
should embrace your software, they'd have to see given benefits.
Benefits in real life, not just claimed benefits. The way you
announced your stuff, reminds me of the way certain sellers on
places like EBay do. They spend one or two lines on telling real
facts, then one or two pages on blowing all alternative solutions -
backing it all up with a hundred and fifty 'testimonials', that are
all so overwhelming, you start wondering, if they have been
manufactured by a close friend! I am not syying, that is the case
with you. Far from it. I am only stating, that your approach is
totally out of line. Come back, be humble, let us know about your
product, its features, benefits, advantages, and whatever you need
our feedback on - and let us have a real chance to put our hands on
it. Then, see how many 'testers' you will get, and make your ears
open for the feedback. By the time, you REALLY have a solution,
that works, and outrides screen reader technology known so far, you
might let the community know.
Well, OK, you say you can close your eyes? Oh, sure you can. Did
you know, even blind people have that ability; funny as it might
sound. :) Well, what I am trying to point out, is that merely
closing your eyes, won't do the trick. Before you closed your eyes,
you already had an idea of what your screen looked like. How else,
would you have been able to know, how to build your software, and
what to have it performing. It is, REALLY is, a different story for
the blind person. He sits down in front of his computer, brings up
a screen; and have no idea - absolutely NO idea - what it looks
like. From here, he is to fully rely on your software to navigate,
operate, and interact with the computer. That is different from
first seeing the screen, then closing your eyes, and move the mouse
where you know you are supposed to. And, furthermore, in the case
you happen to get stuck... ??? What then are you doing? Opening
your eyes, and helping yourself out of the trouble? Or, have you
got stuck and really refused to open your eyes the next three
hours, trying to figure how in the world to get around the problem?
See! That is the real life of a blind person.
Would you have been buying my car, if I told you, it is superior
over all other cars. This one, you see, will never crash with other
cars, simply because it has sensors, that keep the right distance
at any time. You, ofcourse, would have asked me 'how do you know?'
My answer? 'I have walked up and down the street three times,
checking which cars are parked there, and droven my new product
through the street...' You can download my brand new car from XYZ-ABC.go
Many years ago, a student came into my office. He was really
inthusiastic. He was - as part of his engineers study - 'inventing'
a new product for the blind computer user. Well, in short, it was a
mouse, with some Braille cells attached. The idea was, for the
blind to move the mouse around, and the Braille cells would show
what was under the mouse. I had the product for testing a couple of
weeks, even letting some of my students try it out. The results?
Well, how many of you, out there, have been playing with the
product? I take it, that unless one of my students from the late
80s would just happen to be on the list, NOONE of the list members
ever seen such a thing. Why? OK; several reasons. But let me tell
you one of the most obvious, and sensemaking:
The mouse is not, and have never been meant to be a real INPUT
equipment. It was designed, and still is, a pointing device. For it
to work fully, you will need a cooperation between your hand, and
your eyes. You see your pointer on the screen, you see where you
want it to land, you move your hand, you make sure your hand is
moving the right distance and direction, your eyes confirm it lands
where you need it, and finally, you let your finger click the
button. Did you notice, how many times through this process your
eyes, or sight, was included? For the blind person - and believe
me, I am talking out of real-life experience - to move a mouse (or,
go ahead and name it any other pointing device) around a square
mat, that often is only a fraction the size of your physical
screen, is totally senseless. All the graphics, icons, fields and
whatever that screen is powdered with; well, unless you see the
screen layout, it doesn't make much sense. Does your software, for
instance, indicate to the user, if he is close to - or even
exceeding - the edge of the physical (or software) screen? Well,
why I ask, is that some years ago, I tried 'writing' my name, with
the mouse. The computer swas meant to recognize my handwriting. I
started out, imagineing the mouse being a pen. Pretty soon, though,
it showed up, I was not following the 'line' on the screen. And,
when I was almost done, I had exceeded the edge of the screen, and
the computer refused to recognize anything. Thing is, I was still
within the limit of the physical mousepad. To test this, try doing
the following:
Use your mouse, and move the pointer to about one inch from the
right edge of your screen. Then lift up your physical mouse, and
place it at the far left of your physical mousepad. Then move it to
the right. At least, when you reach the middle of your mousepad,
where has your pointer on the screen gone? Way out in the blue, I
guess! Oh, you will say, noone should lift their mouse. And, truly,
agreed. Usually, you won't lift you mouse. But, try do the same
project over again. Only this time, instead of lifting your mouse
and placing it to the left on your pad, open a new window. Your
pointer now, won't be at the edge, or close to it. It might land at
the middle of the screen. How will the blind person know? Oh yes, I
hear you, your software will tell what is under the mouse. Hmm!
Well! Then I know what is under my mouse. But my physical device
still sits at the right side of my pad. Should I move it up, down,
left or right, so as to reach the destination I want? Fooling
around with that plastic thing, they call a mouse, is little
sensemaking for a blind person; and in most cases leaves him
totally lost. Unless, your software has taken into account such
scenarios, I am afraid it has still a good deal of BetaTesting to
go. And, believe me, this is not for a sighted person to test. Here
you will need real professionals: The blind people themself. But
you won't get them, by kicking, slapping and screaming at them. Or,
at their established well-working screen readers. Again, we welcome
you back, when you have the right attitude, and really are looking
genuinely for test-persons. And, as already pointed out, if you
really have made a leap forward in screen reading technology, we
will embrace that. Nothing would be greater, than if someone could
increase my daily functionality, by means of new and better working
software. And, if you have solved my challenges in doing my
shopping on EBay, logging in, and operating my online banking,
working with music software like Sonar, making it possible to reach
destinations on the screen where Window-Eyes doesn't let me; well,
if you really can prove me able to do all of this... And that for a
lower price? Well, if you really, really, really can.. But, then,
don't knock the head off any alternatives. YOUR product,
WINDOW-EYES, JAWS, NVDA, SYSTEM ACCESS TO GO - they will NEVER, and
let me repeat myself: NEVER out-perform each other. They will,
however, most likely fill-in each other, and if we could afford to
have them all on our system, would benefit us all.
Finally: You tell GW not to reverse engineering your stuff? Why? Is
that the impression you have of GW? Wouldn't it - in case you
really had solved the challenges of the blind community - have been
a far better approach, to invite staff members from places like GW
to incooperate your solutions? Or, at least, let them see for
themselves what a great product you have given birth to. Then,
maybe the staff even would have got in touch, and wanted to
cooperate; and you all toghether would have been helping the blind
community. To knock each others head, never will benefit any of the
blind people. That will only take up a ton of resources. Resources
that could have been spent far better in cooperating, and brought
technology three steps further.
Welcome bakc, when your attitude and product is ready for testing!
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:[email protected]>shane findley
To: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: GW Micro Responds to the Future of Screen Readers
Discussion Panel Questions
You can't use the mouse really.
What read text under it, as you aimlessly wonder around? No.
The HotSpot script is almost on the right page. At least on the
trail toward the path.
Free mousing, is not a solution for totally blind, and I have fixed
that problem for you all. I do have the "read text under mouse"
option as well, which is slightly better than WE, for partially blind.
Window Eyes can't get to all the objects on the foreground within a
few seconds like a sighted user either. Soon you will know this
is easily possible.
When I say mouse, I mean mouse as the primary means of input to do
mouse things, like change foreground focus, move mouse quickly over
a control, and click it, or its items.
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