On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: > Alexei, > Tutorials might be fine for mature projects, but I do not think ours is > ready for a big flow of users yet, that would require a tutorial.
we _are_ mature for a small tutorial :) > So +1 for having a nice good tutorial ... one day. > If there are volunteers to write the tutorial now, I'd be happy to help > though. well, actually, I love tutorials too, especially the one for VIM :) some contraversal inside me..fighting..done let's then say "A Short Eclipse Tutorial with Harmony", and then "DRLVM Command-line Args Tutorial". Howabout that? > Thank you, > Nadya Morozova > > -----Original Message----- > From: Fedotov, Alexei A [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:40 PM > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > Subject: RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is > outdated > > Guys, > > I like good tutorials. I learned VIM using a tutorial. I don't need the > VIM tutorial any longer, but at the beginning it was useful. > > +1 for maintain Getting Started as is with minor changes > > Why Eclipse was chosen for the tutorial? Our goal was to use Harmony for > Harmony development. I liked that idea. > > With best regards, > Alexei Fedotov, > Intel Java & XML Engineering > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko > >Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:29 PM > >To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > >Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is > >outdated > > > >On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote: > >> Nadya, > >> > >> One more proposal about "Getting Started": let's remove all current > >content > >> and write something like following: > >> > >> "To the moment we got rid of all major differences from other Java > >> implementations, so to use DRLVM you can just build it (here goes > link to > >> readme with build instructions) and run as any other Java VM. For > >commonly > >> used command-line options please look into the Wiki page (link to > >Salikh's > >> page or to the document)." > >> > >> What do you think? > > > >1 page to hold only 4 lines of text? :) > > > >> Thanks, > >> Pavel > >> > >> > >> On 10 Nov 2006 14:29:59 +0600, Egor Pasko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >> > > >> > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: > >> > > Good day to you, Egor! > >> > > >> > evening, dark and snowy evening :) > >> > > >> > > What do you say about the getting started doc? > >> > > >> > I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony operates near > >> > the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics is in > >> > extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an extra > >> > HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the page). > >> > > >> > I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So, +1 to > Pavel > >> > Ozhdikhin here. > >> > > >> > BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for improvement > from > >> > him: > >> > 1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat has it > with > >> > links to google search. We can have something as soon as we get to > the > >> > desired TLP :) > >> > 2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should be > reported > >> > to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like > >> > "support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the mailing > list > >:) > >> > > >> > > Thank you, > >> > > Nadya Morozova > >> > > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko > >> > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM > >> > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > >> > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" > is > >> > > outdated > >> > > > >> > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: > >> > > > Egor, > >> > > > I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the site > - > >> > > > there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure whether > we > >need > >> > > > yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info. I > hope > >the > >> > > > starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine. > However, > >> > > > adding a link here and there to lead site visitors. > >> > > > > >> > > > Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented page. > >There, > >> > > > you can tell people to go <link>download</link>, > <link>build</link> > >> > > the > >> > > > code. After which, they can start using it just as any other > >> > > > <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions, see our > >> > > > <link>wiki</link> pages. > >> > > > To use the vm, readers might need to use the following > options... > >> > > > If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the > >> > > > <link>component</link> page. If no website page contains an > answer > >- > >> > > > they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>. > >> > > > .. or something like that :) > >> > > > >> > > Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I woke > up > >> > > and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And > could > >> > > not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side > collection > >> > > of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level > navigation > >> > > and contains almost all links you listed here. > >> > > > >> > > This was a really refreshing morning :) > >> > > > >> > > I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel > about > >the > >> > > site. And will report back, if I find something. > >> > > > >> > > Refreshing morning is over, now back to work.. > >> > > > >> > > > Thank you, > >> > > > Nadya Morozova > >> > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > > From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM > >> > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > >> > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with > DRL" > >is > >> > > > outdated > >> > > > > >> > > > On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote: > >> > > > > On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Egor, > >> > > > > > +1 for > >> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of > links > >to > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions > ("Site > >> > > Map" > >> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating > around in > >> > > the > >> > > > web. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > We already have one page having links to the resources about > >DRLVM: > >> > > > > > >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html > >> > > > > Why do you think we need another one? > >> > > > > >> > > > because it is only DRLVM. > >> > > > I think of something like "site map", a collection of links. > Short > >> > > > descriptions to some basic ones. > >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > +1 for > >> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting > the > >> > > word > >> > > > > > "supported" intentionally) > >> > > > > > Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only > options? > >What > >> > > > about > >> > > > > > JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place, but we have > >> > > separate > >> > > > > > docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say? > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I think we can describe basic options for every component > there. > >> > > Only > >> > > > those > >> > > > > that might be interesting for any user. The place for other > >options > >> > > is > >> > > > in > >> > > > > the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component. > >> > > > > >> > > > I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can possibly be > >> > > > grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group them by > >> > > > use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for me. > >> > > > > >> > > > So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out. > >> > > > > >> > > > I see it like HOWTOs. For example: > >> > > > "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler" > >> > > > "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler" > >> > > > "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events" > >> > > > > >> > > > The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about JITs > >> > > > switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate problems, > >which > >> > > > helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster. > >> > > > > >> > > > Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used by > me. If > >> > > > many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly and > >make > >> > > > a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about that? > >> > > > > >> > > > BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind of > limit > >> > > > > >> > > > > Thanks, > >> > > > > Pavel > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Thank you, > >> > > > > > Nadya Morozova > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > > > > From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor > Pasko > >> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM > >> > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started > with > >DRL" > >> > > is > >> > > > > > outdated > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: > >> > > > > > > All, > >> > > > > > > I'd like to share everyone's grief at the sight of > outdated > >> > > > Getting > >> > > > > > > Started document. However, I'd not hurry to eliminate the > >page > >> > > as > >> > > > > > such. > >> > > > > > > We might reconsider some of its contents, change > structure, > >and > >> > > > update > >> > > > > > > individual bits, but please think carefully before > removing > >the > >> > > > page. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I think Getting Started (as the title shows) is aimed to > help > >a > >> > > > newbie > >> > > > > > > work with our vm. I know that many primarily interested > in > >other > >> > > > > > things > >> > > > > > > - conformance, architecture, internal specifics. However, > we > >> > > > should > >> > > > > > also > >> > > > > > > think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting started is now > the > >> > > *only* > >> > > > doc > >> > > > > > > that tries to show how to use our vm. You tell people how > to > >> > > > download > >> > > > > > > and build, but almost nothing about how to run and > configure > >> > > (with > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > exception of EM/JIT). > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > My suggestion would be to think of what you want to tell > >people > >> > > > about > >> > > > > > > usage - with or without eclipse specifics. And store this > >info > >> > > on > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > page. I know it is hard - and I offer my help and support > in > >> > > this > >> > > > > > > burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might be > inobjective > >and > >> > > > > > > emotional :) > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Nadya, > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony knows how > to > >use > >> > > > > > J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility, and we are > happy > >> > > that > >> > > > > > all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > So, I vote for: > >> > > > > > * removing the "Getting Started" (also because of > irritating > >> > > windows > >> > > > > > screenshots:) > >> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting > the > >> > > word > >> > > > > > "supported" intentionally) > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of > links > >to > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions > ("Site > >> > > Map" > >> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating > around in > >> > > the > >> > > > web. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > > > > > From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM > >> > > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started > with > >> > > DRL" > >> > > > is > >> > > > > > > outdated > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > It's not a hard to write a documenation once, it's hard > to > >> > > support > >> > > > it > >> > > > > > :) > >> > > > > > > More problems: > >> > > > > > > 1) -Xem options are obsolete. > >> > > > > > > 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete. > >> > > > > > > 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU users expect > >Harmony > >> > > > VM is > >> > > > > > > able > >> > > > > > > to run the same apps as RI.. > >> > > > > > > ? > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Hello all, > >> > > > > > > > I've read through the "Getting Started with > >> > > > > > > > DRL< > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started > . > >> > > > > > > html > >> > > > > > > > >" > >> > > > > > > > document on the Harmony web and found it completely > >outdated, > >> > > > for > >> > > > > > > example: > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > - the term DRL is used instead of DRLVM > >> > > > > > > > - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are obsolete - we don't > >need > >> > > > them > >> > > > > > > anymore > >> > > > > > > > to run Eclipse. It can be started with DRLVM the > same > >way > >> > > as > >> > > > with > >> > > > > > > any > >> > > > > > > > other > >> > > > > > > > VM. > >> > > > > > > > - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH > anymore, > >at > >> > > > least > >> > > > > > > on > >> > > > > > > > Windows/MSVC > >> > > > > > > > - ij was renamed to java > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > We took a big step to unification with other Java VMs > and > >now > >> > > > > > > > we don't need anything specific to run Eclipse, for > >example. > >> > > > After > >> > > > > > > > removing > >> > > > > > > > all irrelevant info the document would contain only the > >list > >> > > of > >> > > > > > > > command-line > >> > > > > > > > options. I think we can move this list to a separate > >document > >> > > > (Wiki, > >> > > > > > > > Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting Started" > >itself. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Any opinions? > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Thanks, > >> > > > > > > > Pavel > >> > > > > > > > < > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started > . > >> > > > > > > html > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -- > >> > > > > > > Mikhail Fursov > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > -- > >> > > > > > Egor Pasko > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > -- > >> > > > Egor Pasko > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > Egor Pasko > >> > > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Egor Pasko > >> > > >> > > > > >-- > >Egor Pasko > -- Egor Pasko
