Geir, all, I did not mean to delete info that is relevant. It's just that the old getting started is old and not so good. Specifics: - all cmd options are out of date; recent options are stored on wiki and explained in jit-related docs (we'll seem them once the unresolved jiras are applied); old stuff should be deleted - working with eclipse scenarios are now huge (too many screenshots with little value) and give info not related to our project; we decided to remove the bulk of screenshots and info that is about eclipse and not about us; the drlvm+eclipse specifics will be stored on the page devoted to eclipse - so we keep the important stuff and send readers to eclipse.org for eclipse generics - a patch is now available and I also launched a poll to see if anyone has info to share. - many specific items are out of date
If you go over the content of the old getting started doc and flesh out all the unneeded stuff, it only leaves a small heap of useful info. We shall try not to lose those bits. I also got it that we'll have some getting started info, but probably different from what we used to have. I'd try my best to produce a draft next week, but I'm not a guru to know what a tutorial for beginners should include :( Thank you, Nadya Morozova -----Original Message----- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 5:55 PM To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is outdated Morozova, Nadezhda wrote: > Alexei, > Tutorials might be fine for mature projects, but I do not think ours is > ready for a big flow of users yet, that would require a tutorial. > So +1 for having a nice good tutorial ... one day. > If there are volunteers to write the tutorial now, I'd be happy to help > though. Isn't that what the getting started page for DRLVM is? why take information away? I agre, we should clean things up if they are wrong, but as long as it's organized, we should keep stuff. geir > > Thank you, > Nadya Morozova > > -----Original Message----- > From: Fedotov, Alexei A [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:40 PM > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > Subject: RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is > outdated > > Guys, > > I like good tutorials. I learned VIM using a tutorial. I don't need the > VIM tutorial any longer, but at the beginning it was useful. > > +1 for maintain Getting Started as is with minor changes > > Why Eclipse was chosen for the tutorial? Our goal was to use Harmony for > Harmony development. I liked that idea. > > With best regards, > Alexei Fedotov, > Intel Java & XML Engineering > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko >> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:29 PM >> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org >> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is >> outdated >> >> On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote: >>> Nadya, >>> >>> One more proposal about "Getting Started": let's remove all current >> content >>> and write something like following: >>> >>> "To the moment we got rid of all major differences from other Java >>> implementations, so to use DRLVM you can just build it (here goes > link to >>> readme with build instructions) and run as any other Java VM. For >> commonly >>> used command-line options please look into the Wiki page (link to >> Salikh's >>> page or to the document)." >>> >>> What do you think? >> 1 page to hold only 4 lines of text? :) >> >>> Thanks, >>> Pavel >>> >>> >>> On 10 Nov 2006 14:29:59 +0600, Egor Pasko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >>>> On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: >>>>> Good day to you, Egor! >>>> evening, dark and snowy evening :) >>>> >>>>> What do you say about the getting started doc? >>>> I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony operates near >>>> the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics is in >>>> extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an extra >>>> HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the page). >>>> >>>> I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So, +1 to > Pavel >>>> Ozhdikhin here. >>>> >>>> BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for improvement > from >>>> him: >>>> 1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat has it > with >>>> links to google search. We can have something as soon as we get to > the >>>> desired TLP :) >>>> 2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should be > reported >>>> to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like >>>> "support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the mailing > list >> :) >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> Nadya Morozova >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM >>>>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" > is >>>>> outdated >>>>> >>>>> On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: >>>>>> Egor, >>>>>> I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the site > - >>>>>> there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure whether > we >> need >>>>>> yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info. I > hope >> the >>>>>> starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine. > However, >>>>>> adding a link here and there to lead site visitors. >>>>>> >>>>>> Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented page. >> There, >>>>>> you can tell people to go <link>download</link>, > <link>build</link> >>>>> the >>>>>> code. After which, they can start using it just as any other >>>>>> <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions, see our >>>>>> <link>wiki</link> pages. >>>>>> To use the vm, readers might need to use the following > options... >>>>>> If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the >>>>>> <link>component</link> page. If no website page contains an > answer >> - >>>>>> they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>. >>>>>> .. or something like that :) >>>>> Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I woke > up >>>>> and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And > could >>>>> not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side > collection >>>>> of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level > navigation >>>>> and contains almost all links you listed here. >>>>> >>>>> This was a really refreshing morning :) >>>>> >>>>> I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel > about >> the >>>>> site. And will report back, if I find something. >>>>> >>>>> Refreshing morning is over, now back to work.. >>>>> >>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>> Nadya Morozova >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM >>>>>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with > DRL" >> is >>>>>> outdated >>>>>> >>>>>> On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote: >>>>>>> On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>>>>>>> Egor, >>>>>>>> +1 for >>>>>>>> Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of > links >> to >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> main website and other resources with short descriptions > ("Site >>>>> Map" >>>>>>>> or something) so that people are comfortable floating > around in >>>>> the >>>>>> web. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We already have one page having links to the resources about >> DRLVM: >> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html >>>>>>> Why do you think we need another one? >>>>>> because it is only DRLVM. >>>>>> I think of something like "site map", a collection of links. > Short >>>>>> descriptions to some basic ones. >>>>>> >>>>>>> +1 for >>>>>>>> * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting > the >>>>> word >>>>>>>> "supported" intentionally) >>>>>>>> Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only > options? >> What >>>>>> about >>>>>>>> JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place, but we have >>>>> separate >>>>>>>> docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think we can describe basic options for every component > there. >>>>> Only >>>>>> those >>>>>>> that might be interesting for any user. The place for other >> options >>>>> is >>>>>> in >>>>>>> the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component. >>>>>> I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can possibly be >>>>>> grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group them by >>>>>> use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for me. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out. >>>>>> >>>>>> I see it like HOWTOs. For example: >>>>>> "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler" >>>>>> "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler" >>>>>> "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events" >>>>>> >>>>>> The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about JITs >>>>>> switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate problems, >> which >>>>>> helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster. >>>>>> >>>>>> Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used by > me. If >>>>>> many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly and >> make >>>>>> a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about that? >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind of > limit >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Pavel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>>>> Nadya Morozova >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor > Pasko >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM >>>>>>>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started > with >> DRL" >>>>> is >>>>>>>> outdated >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: >>>>>>>>> All, >>>>>>>>> I'd like to share everyone's grief at the sight of > outdated >>>>>> Getting >>>>>>>>> Started document. However, I'd not hurry to eliminate the >> page >>>>> as >>>>>>>> such. >>>>>>>>> We might reconsider some of its contents, change > structure, >> and >>>>>> update >>>>>>>>> individual bits, but please think carefully before > removing >> the >>>>>> page. >>>>>>>>> I think Getting Started (as the title shows) is aimed to > help >> a >>>>>> newbie >>>>>>>>> work with our vm. I know that many primarily interested > in >> other >>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>> - conformance, architecture, internal specifics. However, > we >>>>>> should >>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>> think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting started is now > the >>>>> *only* >>>>>> doc >>>>>>>>> that tries to show how to use our vm. You tell people how > to >>>>>> download >>>>>>>>> and build, but almost nothing about how to run and > configure >>>>> (with >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> exception of EM/JIT). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My suggestion would be to think of what you want to tell >> people >>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> usage - with or without eclipse specifics. And store this >> info >>>>> on >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> page. I know it is hard - and I offer my help and support > in >>>>> this >>>>>>>>> burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might be > inobjective >> and >>>>>>>>> emotional :) >>>>>>>> Nadya, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony knows how > to >> use >>>>>>>> J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility, and we are > happy >>>>> that >>>>>>>> all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, I vote for: >>>>>>>> * removing the "Getting Started" (also because of > irritating >>>>> windows >>>>>>>> screenshots:) >>>>>>>> * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting > the >>>>> word >>>>>>>> "supported" intentionally) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of > links >> to >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> main website and other resources with short descriptions > ("Site >>>>> Map" >>>>>>>> or something) so that people are comfortable floating > around in >>>>> the >>>>>> web. >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM >>>>>>>>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started > with >>>>> DRL" >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> outdated >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's not a hard to write a documenation once, it's hard > to >>>>> support >>>>>> it >>>>>>>> :) >>>>>>>>> More problems: >>>>>>>>> 1) -Xem options are obsolete. >>>>>>>>> 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete. >>>>>>>>> 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU users expect >> Harmony >>>>>> VM is >>>>>>>>> able >>>>>>>>> to run the same apps as RI.. >>>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>>>>>> I've read through the "Getting Started with >>>>>>>>>> DRL< >>>>>>>>>> >> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started > . >>>>>>>>> html >>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>> document on the Harmony web and found it completely >> outdated, >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> example: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - the term DRL is used instead of DRLVM >>>>>>>>>> - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are obsolete - we don't >> need >>>>>> them >>>>>>>>> anymore >>>>>>>>>> to run Eclipse. It can be started with DRLVM the > same >> way >>>>> as >>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> VM. >>>>>>>>>> - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH > anymore, >> at >>>>>> least >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> Windows/MSVC >>>>>>>>>> - ij was renamed to java >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We took a big step to unification with other Java VMs > and >> now >>>>>>>>>> we don't need anything specific to run Eclipse, for >> example. >>>>>> After >>>>>>>>>> removing >>>>>>>>>> all irrelevant info the document would contain only the >> list >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> command-line >>>>>>>>>> options. I think we can move this list to a separate >> document >>>>>> (Wiki, >>>>>>>>>> Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting Started" >> itself. >>>>>>>>>> Any opinions? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> Pavel >>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>>> >> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started > . >>>>>>>>> html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Mikhail Fursov >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Egor Pasko >>>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Egor Pasko >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Egor Pasko >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Egor Pasko >>>> >>>> >> -- >> Egor Pasko >
