On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: > Egor, > I think we're mixing things up a bit, or at least our perceptions of > various docs. I'd not call what you're suggesting a tutorial - it's more > of a howto doc, right? We are lucky to have Salikh write this "How to > write a GC?" Doc - do you mean something similar for "DRLVM Command-line > Args Tutorial"?
on Wikipedia: * A _how-to_ is an informal, often short, description of how to accomplish some specific task * A _tutorial_ is a document, software, or other media created for the purpose of instruction for any of a wide variety of tasks yes, I mix those terms :) > As suggested earlier, we can store drlvm+eclipse specifics on another > page = see JIRA 2009. cmd options reference is on wiki, but a short > howto will be marvelous - illustrating usage of common options, solving > typical problems by using our vm correctly, etc. > Does anybody volunteer to help? let's collect the options first. To choose between them for the howto > Thank you, > Nadya Morozova > > > -----Original Message----- > From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 4:06 PM > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is > outdated > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: > > Alexei, > > Tutorials might be fine for mature projects, but I do not think ours > is > > ready for a big flow of users yet, that would require a tutorial. > > we _are_ mature for a small tutorial :) > > > So +1 for having a nice good tutorial ... one day. > > If there are volunteers to write the tutorial now, I'd be happy to > help > > though. > > well, actually, I love tutorials too, especially the one for VIM :) > some contraversal inside me..fighting..done > > let's then say "A Short Eclipse Tutorial with Harmony", and then > "DRLVM Command-line Args Tutorial". Howabout that? > > > Thank you, > > Nadya Morozova > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Fedotov, Alexei A [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:40 PM > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > > Subject: RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" > is > > outdated > > > > Guys, > > > > I like good tutorials. I learned VIM using a tutorial. I don't need > the > > VIM tutorial any longer, but at the beginning it was useful. > > > > +1 for maintain Getting Started as is with minor changes > > > > Why Eclipse was chosen for the tutorial? Our goal was to use Harmony > for > > Harmony development. I liked that idea. > > > > With best regards, > > Alexei Fedotov, > > Intel Java & XML Engineering > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko > > >Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:29 PM > > >To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > > >Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is > > >outdated > > > > > >On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote: > > >> Nadya, > > >> > > >> One more proposal about "Getting Started": let's remove all current > > >content > > >> and write something like following: > > >> > > >> "To the moment we got rid of all major differences from other Java > > >> implementations, so to use DRLVM you can just build it (here goes > > link to > > >> readme with build instructions) and run as any other Java VM. For > > >commonly > > >> used command-line options please look into the Wiki page (link to > > >Salikh's > > >> page or to the document)." > > >> > > >> What do you think? > > > > > >1 page to hold only 4 lines of text? :) > > > > > >> Thanks, > > >> Pavel > > >> > > >> > > >> On 10 Nov 2006 14:29:59 +0600, Egor Pasko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: > > >> > > Good day to you, Egor! > > >> > > > >> > evening, dark and snowy evening :) > > >> > > > >> > > What do you say about the getting started doc? > > >> > > > >> > I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony operates > near > > >> > the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics is in > > >> > extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an extra > > >> > HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the page). > > >> > > > >> > I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So, +1 to > > Pavel > > >> > Ozhdikhin here. > > >> > > > >> > BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for improvement > > from > > >> > him: > > >> > 1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat has it > > with > > >> > links to google search. We can have something as soon as we get > to > > the > > >> > desired TLP :) > > >> > 2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should be > > reported > > >> > to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like > > >> > "support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the mailing > > list > > >:) > > >> > > > >> > > Thank you, > > >> > > Nadya Morozova > > >> > > > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > > >> > > From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko > > >> > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM > > >> > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > > >> > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with > DRL" > > is > > >> > > outdated > > >> > > > > >> > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: > > >> > > > Egor, > > >> > > > I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the > site > > - > > >> > > > there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure > whether > > we > > >need > > >> > > > yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info. I > > hope > > >the > > >> > > > starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine. > > However, > > >> > > > adding a link here and there to lead site visitors. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented > page. > > >There, > > >> > > > you can tell people to go <link>download</link>, > > <link>build</link> > > >> > > the > > >> > > > code. After which, they can start using it just as any other > > >> > > > <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions, see our > > >> > > > <link>wiki</link> pages. > > >> > > > To use the vm, readers might need to use the following > > options... > > >> > > > If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the > > >> > > > <link>component</link> page. If no website page contains an > > answer > > >- > > >> > > > they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>. > > >> > > > .. or something like that :) > > >> > > > > >> > > Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I > woke > > up > > >> > > and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And > > could > > >> > > not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side > > collection > > >> > > of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level > > navigation > > >> > > and contains almost all links you listed here. > > >> > > > > >> > > This was a really refreshing morning :) > > >> > > > > >> > > I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel > > about > > >the > > >> > > site. And will report back, if I find something. > > >> > > > > >> > > Refreshing morning is over, now back to work.. > > >> > > > > >> > > > Thank you, > > >> > > > Nadya Morozova > > >> > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > >> > > > From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor > Pasko > > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM > > >> > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > > >> > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with > > DRL" > > >is > > >> > > > outdated > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote: > > >> > > > > On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Egor, > > >> > > > > > +1 for > > >> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of > > links > > >to > > >> > > > the > > >> > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions > > ("Site > > >> > > Map" > > >> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating > > around in > > >> > > the > > >> > > > web. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > We already have one page having links to the resources > about > > >DRLVM: > > >> > > > > > > >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html > > >> > > > > Why do you think we need another one? > > >> > > > > > >> > > > because it is only DRLVM. > > >> > > > I think of something like "site map", a collection of links. > > Short > > >> > > > descriptions to some basic ones. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > +1 for > > >> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" > (omitting > > the > > >> > > word > > >> > > > > > "supported" intentionally) > > >> > > > > > Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only > > options? > > >What > > >> > > > about > > >> > > > > > JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place, but we > have > > >> > > separate > > >> > > > > > docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say? > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > I think we can describe basic options for every component > > there. > > >> > > Only > > >> > > > those > > >> > > > > that might be interesting for any user. The place for other > > >options > > >> > > is > > >> > > > in > > >> > > > > the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can possibly > be > > >> > > > grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group them > by > > >> > > > use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for > me. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I see it like HOWTOs. For example: > > >> > > > "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler" > > >> > > > "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler" > > >> > > > "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events" > > >> > > > > > >> > > > The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about > JITs > > >> > > > switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate > problems, > > >which > > >> > > > helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used by > > me. If > > >> > > > many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly > and > > >make > > >> > > > a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about > that? > > >> > > > > > >> > > > BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind of > > limit > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Thanks, > > >> > > > > Pavel > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Thank you, > > >> > > > > > Nadya Morozova > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >> > > > > > From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor > > Pasko > > >> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM > > >> > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started > > with > > >DRL" > > >> > > is > > >> > > > > > outdated > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > All, > > >> > > > > > > I'd like to share everyone's grief at the sight of > > outdated > > >> > > > Getting > > >> > > > > > > Started document. However, I'd not hurry to eliminate > the > > >page > > >> > > as > > >> > > > > > such. > > >> > > > > > > We might reconsider some of its contents, change > > structure, > > >and > > >> > > > update > > >> > > > > > > individual bits, but please think carefully before > > removing > > >the > > >> > > > page. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I think Getting Started (as the title shows) is aimed > to > > help > > >a > > >> > > > newbie > > >> > > > > > > work with our vm. I know that many primarily interested > > in > > >other > > >> > > > > > things > > >> > > > > > > - conformance, architecture, internal specifics. > However, > > we > > >> > > > should > > >> > > > > > also > > >> > > > > > > think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting started is now > > the > > >> > > *only* > > >> > > > doc > > >> > > > > > > that tries to show how to use our vm. You tell people > how > > to > > >> > > > download > > >> > > > > > > and build, but almost nothing about how to run and > > configure > > >> > > (with > > >> > > > the > > >> > > > > > > exception of EM/JIT). > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > My suggestion would be to think of what you want to > tell > > >people > > >> > > > about > > >> > > > > > > usage - with or without eclipse specifics. And store > this > > >info > > >> > > on > > >> > > > the > > >> > > > > > > page. I know it is hard - and I offer my help and > support > > in > > >> > > this > > >> > > > > > > burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might be > > inobjective > > >and > > >> > > > > > > emotional :) > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Nadya, > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony knows > how > > to > > >use > > >> > > > > > J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility, and we are > > happy > > >> > > that > > >> > > > > > all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > So, I vote for: > > >> > > > > > * removing the "Getting Started" (also because of > > irritating > > >> > > windows > > >> > > > > > screenshots:) > > >> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" > (omitting > > the > > >> > > word > > >> > > > > > "supported" intentionally) > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of > > links > > >to > > >> > > > the > > >> > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions > > ("Site > > >> > > Map" > > >> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating > > around in > > >> > > the > > >> > > > web. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >> > > > > > > From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM > > >> > > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > > >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started > > with > > >> > > DRL" > > >> > > > is > > >> > > > > > > outdated > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > It's not a hard to write a documenation once, it's hard > > to > > >> > > support > > >> > > > it > > >> > > > > > :) > > >> > > > > > > More problems: > > >> > > > > > > 1) -Xem options are obsolete. > > >> > > > > > > 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete. > > >> > > > > > > 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU users > expect > > >Harmony > > >> > > > VM is > > >> > > > > > > able > > >> > > > > > > to run the same apps as RI.. > > >> > > > > > > ? > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Hello all, > > >> > > > > > > > I've read through the "Getting Started with > > >> > > > > > > > DRL< > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started > > . > > >> > > > > > > html > > >> > > > > > > > >" > > >> > > > > > > > document on the Harmony web and found it completely > > >outdated, > > >> > > > for > > >> > > > > > > example: > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > - the term DRL is used instead of DRLVM > > >> > > > > > > > - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are obsolete - we > don't > > >need > > >> > > > them > > >> > > > > > > anymore > > >> > > > > > > > to run Eclipse. It can be started with DRLVM the > > same > > >way > > >> > > as > > >> > > > with > > >> > > > > > > any > > >> > > > > > > > other > > >> > > > > > > > VM. > > >> > > > > > > > - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH > > anymore, > > >at > > >> > > > least > > >> > > > > > > on > > >> > > > > > > > Windows/MSVC > > >> > > > > > > > - ij was renamed to java > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > We took a big step to unification with other Java VMs > > and > > >now > > >> > > > > > > > we don't need anything specific to run Eclipse, for > > >example. > > >> > > > After > > >> > > > > > > > removing > > >> > > > > > > > all irrelevant info the document would contain only > the > > >list > > >> > > of > > >> > > > > > > > command-line > > >> > > > > > > > options. I think we can move this list to a separate > > >document > > >> > > > (Wiki, > > >> > > > > > > > Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting Started" > > >itself. > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Any opinions? > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Thanks, > > >> > > > > > > > Pavel > > >> > > > > > > > < > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started > > . > > >> > > > > > > html > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -- > > >> > > > > > > Mikhail Fursov > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > -- > > >> > > > > > Egor Pasko > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > -- > > >> > > > Egor Pasko > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > -- > > >> > > Egor Pasko > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Egor Pasko > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >-- > > >Egor Pasko > > > > -- > Egor Pasko > -- Egor Pasko
