+1 for having some getting started info on a separate page. There are some things that need to stand out promptly, and probably newbie info is one of them (I mean, I'd want to have such a page when I got started with this project).
We can expand the text suggested by Pavel by adding: * links to nice tutorials for other vms * a short section to say how is a vm used with a couple of examples; this won't take too much effort/maintenance but would be a nice clear intro, that's not another click away on some site of another project Thank you, Nadya Morozova -----Original Message----- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:29 PM To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is outdated On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote: > Nadya, > > One more proposal about "Getting Started": let's remove all current content > and write something like following: > > "To the moment we got rid of all major differences from other Java > implementations, so to use DRLVM you can just build it (here goes link to > readme with build instructions) and run as any other Java VM. For commonly > used command-line options please look into the Wiki page (link to Salikh's > page or to the document)." > > What do you think? 1 page to hold only 4 lines of text? :) > Thanks, > Pavel > > > On 10 Nov 2006 14:29:59 +0600, Egor Pasko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: > > > Good day to you, Egor! > > > > evening, dark and snowy evening :) > > > > > What do you say about the getting started doc? > > > > I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony operates near > > the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics is in > > extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an extra > > HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the page). > > > > I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So, +1 to Pavel > > Ozhdikhin here. > > > > BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for improvement from > > him: > > 1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat has it with > > links to google search. We can have something as soon as we get to the > > desired TLP :) > > 2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should be reported > > to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like > > "support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the mailing list :) > > > > > Thank you, > > > Nadya Morozova > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko > > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is > > > outdated > > > > > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: > > > > Egor, > > > > I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the site - > > > > there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure whether we need > > > > yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info. I hope the > > > > starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine. However, > > > > adding a link here and there to lead site visitors. > > > > > > > > Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented page. There, > > > > you can tell people to go <link>download</link>, <link>build</link> > > > the > > > > code. After which, they can start using it just as any other > > > > <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions, see our > > > > <link>wiki</link> pages. > > > > To use the vm, readers might need to use the following options... > > > > If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the > > > > <link>component</link> page. If no website page contains an answer - > > > > they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>. > > > > .. or something like that :) > > > > > > Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I woke up > > > and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And could > > > not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side collection > > > of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level navigation > > > and contains almost all links you listed here. > > > > > > This was a really refreshing morning :) > > > > > > I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel about the > > > site. And will report back, if I find something. > > > > > > Refreshing morning is over, now back to work.. > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Nadya Morozova > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is > > > > outdated > > > > > > > > On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote: > > > > > On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Egor, > > > > > > +1 for > > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of links to > > > > the > > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions ("Site > > > Map" > > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating around in > > > the > > > > web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We already have one page having links to the resources about DRLVM: > > > > > http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html > > > > > Why do you think we need another one? > > > > > > > > because it is only DRLVM. > > > > I think of something like "site map", a collection of links. Short > > > > descriptions to some basic ones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for > > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting the > > > word > > > > > > "supported" intentionally) > > > > > > Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only options? What > > > > about > > > > > > JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place, but we have > > > separate > > > > > > docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can describe basic options for every component there. > > > Only > > > > those > > > > > that might be interesting for any user. The place for other options > > > is > > > > in > > > > > the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component. > > > > > > > > I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can possibly be > > > > grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group them by > > > > use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for me. > > > > > > > > So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out. > > > > > > > > I see it like HOWTOs. For example: > > > > "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler" > > > > "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler" > > > > "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events" > > > > > > > > The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about JITs > > > > switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate problems, which > > > > helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster. > > > > > > > > Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used by me. If > > > > many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly and make > > > > a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about that? > > > > > > > > BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind of limit > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Pavel > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Nadya Morozova > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM > > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" > > > is > > > > > > outdated > > > > > > > > > > > > On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote: > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > > I'd like to share everyone's grief at the sight of outdated > > > > Getting > > > > > > > Started document. However, I'd not hurry to eliminate the page > > > as > > > > > > such. > > > > > > > We might reconsider some of its contents, change structure, and > > > > update > > > > > > > individual bits, but please think carefully before removing the > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Getting Started (as the title shows) is aimed to help a > > > > newbie > > > > > > > work with our vm. I know that many primarily interested in other > > > > > > things > > > > > > > - conformance, architecture, internal specifics. However, we > > > > should > > > > > > also > > > > > > > think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting started is now the > > > *only* > > > > doc > > > > > > > that tries to show how to use our vm. You tell people how to > > > > download > > > > > > > and build, but almost nothing about how to run and configure > > > (with > > > > the > > > > > > > exception of EM/JIT). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My suggestion would be to think of what you want to tell people > > > > about > > > > > > > usage - with or without eclipse specifics. And store this info > > > on > > > > the > > > > > > > page. I know it is hard - and I offer my help and support in > > > this > > > > > > > burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might be inobjective and > > > > > > > emotional :) > > > > > > > > > > > > Nadya, > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony knows how to use > > > > > > J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility, and we are happy > > > that > > > > > > all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, I vote for: > > > > > > * removing the "Getting Started" (also because of irritating > > > windows > > > > > > screenshots:) > > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting the > > > word > > > > > > "supported" intentionally) > > > > > > > > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of links to > > > > the > > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions ("Site > > > Map" > > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating around in > > > the > > > > web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM > > > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with > > > DRL" > > > > is > > > > > > > outdated > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not a hard to write a documenation once, it's hard to > > > support > > > > it > > > > > > :) > > > > > > > More problems: > > > > > > > 1) -Xem options are obsolete. > > > > > > > 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete. > > > > > > > 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU users expect Harmony > > > > VM is > > > > > > > able > > > > > > > to run the same apps as RI.. > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > I've read through the "Getting Started with > > > > > > > > DRL< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started. > > > > > > > html > > > > > > > > >" > > > > > > > > document on the Harmony web and found it completely outdated, > > > > for > > > > > > > example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - the term DRL is used instead of DRLVM > > > > > > > > - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are obsolete - we don't need > > > > them > > > > > > > anymore > > > > > > > > to run Eclipse. It can be started with DRLVM the same way > > > as > > > > with > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > VM. > > > > > > > > - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH anymore, at > > > > least > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > Windows/MSVC > > > > > > > > - ij was renamed to java > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We took a big step to unification with other Java VMs and now > > > > > > > > we don't need anything specific to run Eclipse, for example. > > > > After > > > > > > > > removing > > > > > > > > all irrelevant info the document would contain only the list > > > of > > > > > > > > command-line > > > > > > > > options. I think we can move this list to a separate document > > > > (Wiki, > > > > > > > > Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting Started" itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any opinions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Pavel > > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started. > > > > > > > html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Mikhail Fursov > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Egor Pasko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Egor Pasko > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Egor Pasko > > > > > > > -- > > Egor Pasko > > > > -- Egor Pasko
