On Sun, 2021-03-14 at 19:23 +0100, 'Kay F. Jahnke' via hugin and other free panoramic software wrote: > Am 14.03.21 um 15:15 schrieb yuv: > > Sorry for the bad experience. > > I sure don't mean *you*. [...] I'm grateful [...] I enjoyed our > exchange [...] I wouldn't be where I am now as a software developer > if it weren't for the odd nudge you gave me.
I enjoyed the exchanges as well and am sorry I could not contribute more to your project. Your feedback is much appreciated. > I'm happy to share and collaborate; with pv it's just that I am the > driving force, and I accept that role for the time being. I thought this thread was about distributing pv(lux?) with Hugin, which many people including myself find a good idea? > pv *is* my own show - this is not really a choice [...] > a complete rewrite. [...] > it's my opinion that to conceive of a complex new software, one best > does it alone or only with a very small close-nit team. [...] > I first wanted something to show, rather than just talk about stuff. Totally understand this approach. It's the beginning. And you are past the beginning: you have successfully launched, successfully shown something, successfully attracted an initial group of followers. Don't you feel the growing pains yet? Let's continue this thread when you do. Many of your followers, me included, would support distribution of Lux with Hugin. However, there are other ways to scale your project, and you may need to consider the alternatives. > > Going technical here is diverting from the problem that asks for a > > fix. > > I don't mean to go technical on you I did not complain that you were going technical on me, and I actually want to empower you to stay technical. Your tech is inspiring. What I am respectfully suggesting is that you need to spend some time on organization and infrastructure. You may believe that co-ordination is a waste of time. I submit to you that it is an investment of time. Setting up robust organization and tools that scale will support lux in the next stage and accelerate its development, saving your time, leveraging your tech. Would you consider your options? Distribution with Hugin was proposed and briefly discussed. Does not seem a real option, despite widespread support of some contributors and former leaders/maintainers. Neither the current maintainer of Hugin, nor you, seem willing to even talk a compromise, and the rest of us are missing in action. Lux' relationship with Hugin can be summarized as: overlapping user base, some overlapping contributors; a common channel of communication (hugin-ptx) and a simple tech interface in the PTO file format. For more, it would take a conversation between you and the Hugin maintainer. Other than that, sadly, there are no synergies to be harnessed and everything else will be duplicate, whether refactored code; infrastructure; organization. For you duplication means you need to build that organization or get someone to build it for you. You have contributors helping here and there, empower them and empower yourself. > > > I'd still like to see hugin move [from Sourceforge]. > > > > You'll have to discuss that with the current maintainer. > > It's really just a minor itch, and I won't scratch it. I'd actually > be more excited to see someone fork hugin, maybe with some fresh > ideas. I'm not the one. > > I don't know who the current maintainer is, and I'm not really > involved Come on, let's not be hypocritical. Politics is dirty enough when done genuinly in the best interest of the community. The current maintainer has singlehandedly kept Hugin alive for almost a decade, and deserves credit for that, if only because no-one of us previous team was willing to put in the effort. He has also single handedly alienated don't know how many talented contributors like yourself, and I called him names for that. You don't want me to call you names, do you? Looking at Hugin ten years later, I am sad to see that nothing changed. Hugin has regressed to be the maintainer's own sandbox much like pv was (or still is?) yours until you had "something to show." The most likely outcome is that Hugin will miss the next leap forward and will die when the current maintainer looses interest. Don't be fooled by what you see: much of it is inertia. The bugfixes and translations wing it on the pre-existing organization and infrastructure. Lux, on the contrary, needs to build organization and infrastructure to take off. Lux needs wings to fly. Unless you want to keep it as your own sandbox. You have a choice: you can give your child independence and let it live beyond you to much more greatness than the individual; or you can keep it in your sandbox. It would have been nice to pick up Hugin's infrastructure, maybe refresh it, and fly Lux on its wings, avoiding duplication. But that does not seem to be possible. > > if posting to a mailing list or publishing software under a license > > that encourages distribution and multiplication is done for the > > purpose of reward, I strongly encourage self-reflection if not > > therapy. Give without expectations, or don't give, for you will be > > eaten alive. > > I don't quite get you. Why do I post to a mailing list? [..] > to get an echo [...] > I'm not interested in money for my project, if that's what you think > I mean with 'reward'. [...] > I want to give something back [...] my 'masterpiece', Reward is anything that can be given/taken. Parents know that attention is one of the most craved for reward. The only determinant is expectation. Even giving can be rewarding. Do you expect a reward in return? Do you expect the gift of your masterpiece to be accepted? > masterpiece is vspline. I wish I had time to learn about it. But right now I even feel guilty for taking the time and typing this mail, and I do not expect an improvement before the end of the year. > I'm already trying to show people how they can 'slot in' pv instead > of other tools, I see the increased traffic to hugin-ptx. With all due respect, a generic broad-use mailing list is quite inefficient for the purpose. Among others, it makes it difficult to someone new to jump on the bandwagon. No institutional memory whatsoever (and you are the one who complained about search for relevant panoramas: it is the same thing). How about setting up more specific organizational tools? A bug tracker is an obvious one. My impression, correct me if I am wrong, is that in the near future Lux will be able to run the whole rendering process and, through the use of external programs, the non-GUI part of the image registration process, all around the PTO file format. The sticky point will be a GUI editor -- for control points, masks, WYSIWYG editing. Reinventing the wheel would be a Herculean task. This is where integration with Hugin would come handy, but, we know it won't happen soon. Writing a whole UI from scratch is a massive endeavor. I mentored Ippei Ukai on a Google Summer of Code (don't tell Google, he actually mentored me) almost 15 years ago in a refactoring of a much smaller and incomplete Hugin from wxWidgets to Qt. In hindsight, good that Hugin did not adopt Qt (and the whole shitshow going on with it). Today, I may consider something like Python bindings and https://kivy.org still, Herculean. > I'll just take my time 'sucking in' more functionality - I don't want > to overextend myself. One way to not overextend yourself is to co-ordinate with others; and to use task-optimized tools. The overxtension of going from A to B is not only in the distance, but also in the tool used to cover it. And the organization. > And there are technical reasons: Your plans for Lux sound very interesting, and I am confident that if you open up to others, unconditionally, Lux will reach much further and you will have more time for vspline. But it is fully your choice, and not technical. > As you say, bitbucket is a bit 'exotic'. If people so desire, they > can simply do forks and pull requests, as is the state of the art. I admittedly lost touch with the state of the art for code contributions as it is sadly no longer part of my daily life. But what I observe on hugin-ptx leads me to believe that there is some room for improvements. > I'd sure like to do exchange on bitbucket's issue tracker rather than > cluttering hugin-ptx when it comes to technical stuff A simple one that comes to mind is indeed an issue tracker. I used Jira, which I believe is also bitbucket's issue tracker since they both belong to Atlassian, a few years ago for a client. Nudging people into that direction may be one way... > , but I have to pick up people where they are ... using the same issue tracker as Hugin, Enblend, Libpano, given the expected overlap in contributors would be another way, and does indeed pick them up where they are AND on a more appropriate tool than a mailing list. The synergy from all three projects on the same infrastructure is not to be under-estimated. Or the third alternative is to set up a project home in a less exotic place, but still a different one from the previous two. One never knows the future, and before Microsoft's acquisition I would have suggested Github. Now the suggestion is Gitlab, but it is admittedly one without the depth of analysis that went into choosing Launchpad more than a decade ago. I have no vested interest in any of those alternatives. I am just urging you to take some time and consider which one is best for Lux. Make a choice, preferably a team choice (which means you accept ex-ante that it may not get your way, and you don't throw a control tantrum ex- post if things turn out not as you want them) with your core team. At the very least, hear out what Harry and Kornel have to say. Be ready for your ride to be hijaked, with good intention, for a joyride. And enjoy the ride. > - if they want to send in patches, that's fine with me even if > I have to suck them in manually. I'm in no rush. If I get bored > applying diffs, we'll think of something I'm sure. IMHO that's an avoidance attitude. But it is totally your prerogative, as much as it is the prerogative of Hugin's current maintainer not to talk with you about distributing Lux with Hugin. > One of my aims in life is to achieve a high level of vertical > integration. It's good sometimes to be forced to see other aspects > of the process than just the 'inspirational level', even though it > may not be so 'glorious'. And it makes me humble, because I see all > sort of things which I can't yet do or do well. Two concepts collapsed in one. Vertical integration is about control, and often times the opposite of humility. I am looking to you, Apple. Acting in less 'glorious' roles gives one greater understanding, but not humility yet. Humility comes from accepting to relinquish control, and it takes great strength and self-assurance to do so. Accepting subordinate contributions is easy. Even the insecure can do it. Accepting equal contributions is more difficult. Accepting different opinions, or even superior contributions, is true humility and greatness combined in one. > Again, I'll bear your advice in mind. If you look at the exchange > with my two newly-found collaborators, I think my style of dealing > with team work is quite apparent. I have no interest commenting on your collaboration style in public. I will just say that it has not been put to the test at all, and I won't be the one to challenge it. On my end, I hope to fix my issues with my mail server very soon. Then I will again disappear from hugin-ptx, because at the moment I am neither shooting nor processing images worthy of these tools, and I have no time to contribute anything of value here. Best of luck to you. -- Yuval Levy, JD, MBA, CFA Ontario-licensed lawyer -- A list of frequently asked questions is available at: http://wiki.panotools.org/Hugin_FAQ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "hugin and other free panoramic software" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to hugin-ptx+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hugin-ptx/50329c546c41a37df7a82a20a6dc363783621c2f.camel%40levy.ch.
