Scott, I agree that ethics is a large part of it.
I will suggest that it is reasonable to anticipate that an attorney may well argue that the programmers in fact became co-conspirators by virtue of the fact that they cannot reasonably argue that they did not know that the code was intended to perpetuate a crime. Whether that argument is made in this case or in some future case, I strongly believe that at some point it will be made, and that it is more likely to occur sooner than later. I suggest that it would be better for the programming profession to take proactive steps to come up with ethical guidelines for members of our profession, rather than leaving it to government to do it, which as we all know, would not be in our best interests. John P. Baker -----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Ford Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 11:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control Systems This is a question of ethics and ones moral compass. Regards, Scott On Friday, September 18, 2015, Richard Pinion <rpin...@netscape.com> wrote: > I understand the point you are making, that an employee is told to do > something that they know is illegal or immoral, and they do it anyway. > Having worked for a non-profit health insurance company many, many > years ago, I was often asked if we intentionally programmed the system > to automatically reject a claim on first submission, regardless of > whether the claim met all criteria for processing. I was never asked > to do that, nor was I aware of any such code within their claims > processing system. Yet, the public perspective was that the company > did that. > > Not sure how that story fits into the discussion at hand, but it is > late in the day, and I'm looking for ways to fill my time until > "Miller" time. > > --- jba...@ngssallc.com <javascript:;> wrote: > > From: "John P. Baker" <jba...@ngssallc.com <javascript:;>> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU <javascript:;> > Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution > Control Systems > Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 16:54:45 -0400 > > Richard, > > I think that there is a big difference here in that the programming > staff at Volkswagen, if the initial reports are accurate, could not > reasonably not have known that what they were coding was in furtherance of a > crime. > > John P. Baker > > -----Original Message----- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > <javascript:;>] On Behalf Of Richard Pinion > Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 4:30 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU <javascript:;> > Subject: Re: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution > Control Systems > > As an employee of a company who deals with HIPPA controlled/protected > data, I feel very uncomfortable knowing that I can be charged either > with a civil or criminal violation in the event that HIPPA data, under > my control, is accidentally lost or stolen. And I am not talking > about an intentional leak of protected patient information. What > really floored me this year, when I took the yearly HIPPA > certification online class, was HIPPA is administered under the Office of > Civil Rights. > > Regardless of my personal political theology, it makes me > uncomfortable that if I offend a person or persons, the friendly > neighborhood OCR representative could be asked to "look at" my > activities as relating to HIPPA compliance. I'm sure an unbiased and > diligent OCR employee might uncover some violation(s) if they > investigated long and hard enough. > > --- jba...@ngssallc.com <javascript:;> wrote: > > From: "John P. Baker" <jba...@ngssallc.com <javascript:;>> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU <javascript:;> > Subject: Volkswagen Programmed Vehicle to Deactivate Pollution Control > Systems > Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:56:34 -0400 > > > http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2015/09/18/epa-says-vw-intention > ally-v > iolates-clean-air-standards/?intcmp=hpbt1 > > In the referenced article, it is being reported that Volkswagen had > their programming staff intentionally program the computers > controlling the pollution control systems on certain 2008-2015 Audi > and Volkswagen diesel vehicles to activate the full pollution control > systems ONLY when the vehicle was undergoing official emissions > testing. At all other times, the pollution control systems were > inactive and the vehicles were putting out emissions as high as 40 times the > legal limit. > > The company is facing $18 billion in fines. > > It is unclear whether the Volkswagen executives who directed the > scheme will face criminal charges. > > It is also unclear whether the programming staff who wrote the code > will face criminal charges. > > Even though this is not a mainframe issue, it is an issue that > directly affects us and our industry. Hackers are already a significant > black eye. > This is much worse. It makes legitimate programmers look suspect. > > It raises the uncomfortable question of whether or not we can or > should be held criminally liable if we are directed to code a program > or a change to a program that we know would have the effect of > violating the law and we then knowingly proceed to code that program or a > change to a program. > > It has been suggested in the past that programmers should be licensed > and/or bonded. > > I am not particularly fond of either idea. However, I would like to > hear what others think. > > John P. Baker > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu <javascript:;> with the message: > INFO IBM-MAIN > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. 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