Thanks a lot, Chadwell ji, for great inputs for members like me. On 10 Dec 2016 6:06 pm, "C CHADWELL" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dear Dr Rawat > > Thanks for confirmation that this represents a new record for Uttarakhand > and acknowledgement of my input. I have few references for this region. > > Yes, voucher pressed specimens are required, ideally gathered in > triplicate. One for whichever Institution the botanist who > undertakes the collection is from, a second for one of the national > herbaria in India and one to be sent to professor Richards for > further verification (which he would subsequently deposit in one of the > UK's national herbaria) - on the assumption the population > size is sufficient to allow this without damaging it. > > May I request that several individual specimens (2 or 3 would probably be > sufficient in this case) are gathered for each 'sample' i.e. sufficient to > fill a typical herbarium sheet, rather than just a single specimen, as is > often the case these days illustrating any obvious variant within the > colony. Relying too heavily on single specimens especially if they are > atypical can create problems/confusion amongst taxonomists, as you know. > > I am sure you will ensure a good set of digital close-ups of foliage (both > upper and lower surface), petals (front and back), calyces, > flower stalks etc. as well as habit and habitat shots are taken to > accompany the pressed specimens plus exhaustive field notes. I mention > this not suggesting you do not know this already but to explain what is > involved to members less familiar with such matters. Such images and > information represent supporting evidence and will enable others to inspect > similar habitat and when companion species are noted, to make a special > effort to look out for this Primula incl. when it is not in flower (a time > when plants can be overlooked especially if foliage dies-down. > > *This just goes to show the potential this google group has to contribute > to knowledge of flora in the Indian Himalaya and India as a * > *whole.* > > Let us hope this species can be found in other locations in Uttarakhand in > the years to come (certainly not in higher or drier habitats) - it is very > unlikely to occur in Himachal Pradesh and even more so in Kashmir but once > those who explore and photograph them know what to look out for (get their > eye in), in promising habitats at suitable altitudes, more records are > likely. Just because this represents the first record it does not imply > there are not others or it is that the species is rare in Uttarakhand. It > might be but nobody can say at this stage. I recollect a petiolarid under > waterfalls during my first visit to Nepal in 1990 which I only subsequently > realised was Primula boothii subspecies autumnalis. > > *This should be only the first (and second bearing in mind the other > Primula that Professor Richards has identified) of many more species, > **subspecies > and varieties belonging to lots of different genera, this group helps to > locate.* > > High quality digital photography, good field botany locating less familiar > plants and then suitable botanical input from assorted members with quality > pressed voucher specimens gathered by expert field botanists to be > collected on behalf of regional institutions with duplicate specimen sent > nationally and internationally will round things off. No doubt with > publication of the record at some point - though best not to rush things. > > *This all represents good international collaboration which benefits > Indian botany. Right from my first visit to India back in 1980, I have > repeatedly said, TAKE ADVANTAGE of WILLINGNESS of FOREIGN BOTANISTS and > PLANT ENTHUSIASTS to help with the study of Himalayan flora. This is to > the benefit of all concerned and shows how this google group can work well > together, setting an example for others to follow.* > > I recently posted images of *Primula boothii* subspecies *autumnalis* > taken by my eldest son in Nepal for comparative purposes. > > Professor Richards has outlined the characteristics to look out for in > P.boothii, to separate them from P.petiolaris and P.gracilipes. > > I hope that I can remain in a position to assist this group and the group > welcomes my inputs. My comments, questions, challenges, > corrections and *constructive* criticisms are well worth "putting up > with" and my underlying good-intentions, recognised. > > *As the late outstanding horticulturist & conservationist, himself a fine > field-botanist, Prem Nath Kohli, would say, "India will gain".* > *IF what I am doing is fully embraced.....* > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* D.S Rawat <[email protected]> > *To:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > *Cc:* C CHADWELL <[email protected]>; efloraofindia < > [email protected]>; Satish Phadke <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016, 4:49 > *Subject:* Re: Fwd: Fwd: [efloraofindia:256995] Re: Plumbaginaceae, > Primulaceae & Myrsinaceae Fortnight 1-14June2014: Primula petiolaris(?) > from Uttarakhand_DSR_22 > > It is indeed an addition to the Primula species in Uttarakhand as it is > not mentioned in the checklist of Uniyal et al. 2007 [Flowering Plants of > Uttarakhand (A Checklist)]. > And it clearly represents the case of wrong identification in the past. > > It all now will result in to one another visit to the location for > collecting specimens in the next spring. > > Thank you Chadwell Ji, Prof. Richards and Garg Ji to reaching to the > conclusive ID. > > DSRawat Pantnagar > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------------------------ > Dr D.S. Rawat > Department of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of Agriculture & > Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIA > *eflorapantnagar* <https://sites.google.com/site/eflorapantnagar/home> > displaying wild flora of Pantnagar > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 5:23 AM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks a lot, Chadwell ji. > It is all because you requested that we take his opinion in this matter. > > On 9 December 2016 at 22:21, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com > <[email protected]>> wrote: > > It is so helpful to receive input from those with the maximum > knowledge/familiarity with a genus, especially > for examples we have been uncertain about. > > *Naturally, it is of special interest to members of this group, when a > species, subspecies or variety has their range* > *extended into Indian territory or recognised only in Indian territory.* > > *As far as I know, Richards 'determination' (not sure if he would count it > as such) for this plant from Munsyari means this * > *represents the first record of Primula boothii in Uttarakhand, as is the > case for **Primula gracilipes from Gori Valley.* > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > *To:* efloraofindia <[email protected] m > <[email protected]>> > *Cc:* D.S Rawat <[email protected]> ; Satish Phadke < > [email protected]> > *Sent:* Friday, 9 December 2016, 12:20 > *Subject:* Fwd: Fwd: [efloraofindia:256995] Re: Plumbaginaceae, > Primulaceae & Myrsinaceae Fortnight 1-14June2014: Primula petiolaris(?) > from Uttarakhand_DSR_22 > > Thanks a lot, Richards ji. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *JOHN RICHARDS* > Date: 9 December 2016 at 15:36 > Subject: Re: Fwd: [efloraofindia:256995] Re: Plumbaginaceae, Primulaceae & > Myrsinaceae Fortnight 1-14June2014: Primula petiolaris(?) from > Uttarakhand_DSR_22 > To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected]> > > > Dear Mr Garg, > Many thanks for sending these images. They are of P. boothii, not P. > petiolaris or P. gracilipes. Both the former species have much shorter > flower stems. For P. boothii please note the following characters: > no farina > long slender usually reddish flower stems > calyx which is angled, due to each sepal being keeled (like a house roof) > often (not always) red colour in leaf veins etc > This is a forest species from Annapurna eastwards to west Bhutan. Most > flower in April, but there is an autumn flowering subspecies ssp. > autumnalis, also a stoloniferous ssp. repens. > > John Richards > > > On Friday, 9 December 2016, 5:46, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi, Richards ji, > May I request you to pl. help in the matter as requested by Chris Chadwell > ji. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *J.M. Garg* <[email protected]> > Date: 6 December 2016 at 13:02 > Subject: Fwd: [efloraofindia:256995] Re: Plumbaginaceae, Primulaceae & > Myrsinaceae Fortnight 1-14June2014: Primula petiolaris(?) from > Uttarakhand_DSR_22 > To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com > <[email protected]>> > Cc: "D.S Rawat" <[email protected]> > > > Forwarding again for Id assistance please. > Some earlier relevant feedback: > Thanks for sending additional images. I will quote further from 'Primula' > which states that few species have been so misunderstood as Primula > petiolaris. As the earliest described species in the section it was used > as a dustbin during the 19th century, most petiolarids being assigned to > it. As the section became better understood, most of these were split off > but so few specimens of the type plant existed that they were > misinterpreted. > > Unfortunately, Wallich's type specimen was collected in the summer with a > few off-season flowers, so it has summer leaves with long petioles > untypical of the usual flowering conditions (hence the name of this > species, and indeed the section). Further it was not realized that flowers > of pink petiolarids dry blue. *Many 19th Century pressed specimens had > few, if any field notes - a situation which, regrettably has continued with > too many Indian botanists gathering scrappy, often poor pressed specimens > and almost no field notes (such as flower colour) to **make attempts to > reliable identify more difficult to name primulas (and other genera) that > much harder (to impossible).* > > Anyhow, according to Richards the plant photographed above Munsyari is not > P.petiolaris. It is a shame that the calyces photographed are not in > focus. They are supposed to be tightly clasps, blunter lobes. There is a > total absence of meal plus cup-shaped flowers, tight, crisped rosette at > flowering with almost stem-less flowers. It is also smaller. > > The authors of Flora of Bhutan speak of differences between forms of > P.petiolaris in Bhutan and those in Nepal. It may well be forms in > Uttarkhand are somewhat different as well, so their comments as to > Bhutanese and Sikkimese specimens might not apply further West? > > IF this plant is P.gracilipes then it has not been recorded from what was > Kumaon previously. As the differences have been so poorly understood, the > old records are probably somewhat meaningless and few in number. > > *As Richards thinks P.gracilipes could be considered a subspecies of > P.petiolaris, his opinion, should, for the present, rank the highest. It > would be helpful if someone could forward these images and accompanying > information to him, for his thoughts.* > > *In the mean time, how about calling these plants Primula petiolaris sensu > lato or Primula petiolaris subspecies gracilipes? Or Primula sp. aff. > petiolaris? This indicates the uncertainty.* > > *If group members can send in more good-quality images of petiolarids (and > all other primulas for that making) with close-up, in focus images of > flowers (upper and lower surface of petals, sepals, stalks, upper and lower > leaf surfaces) plus good field notes, then this will help us clarify the > situation.* > > *Without more images showing all the necessary characteristics of a number > of other collections, it is impossible to add much to the uncertainty which > seems to remain.* > > *So, I hope group members are inspired to get up into the mountains to > look for Primulas - in the case of the petiolarids, they are not found at > extreme altitudes or terrain, so most members should be able to undertake > the required treks/walks.* > > *Look forward to lots of Primula images in 2017.* > > Best Wishes, > > Chris Chadwell > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *D.S Rawat* <[email protected]> > Date: 18 November 2016 at 15:12 > Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:256995] Re: Plumbaginaceae, Primulaceae & > Myrsinaceae Fortnight 1-14June2014: Primula petiolaris(?) from > Uttarakhand_DSR_22 > To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com > <[email protected]>> > Cc: chrischadwell261@btinternet. com <[email protected]>, > [email protected] > > > Attaching more images as desired. > This primula was shot above Munsyari (Pithoragarh District, Kumaon, > Uttarakhand) at an elevation of about 2600-2700m. It was growing on a moist > vertical mossy slope in second fortnight of March 2013. As I understand > with increasing spring temperature the habitat was becoming drier. Some > tetramerous flowers are also visible (marked in image-2). > DSRawat Pantnagar > > > On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 2:24:32 PM UTC+5:30, JM Garg wrote: > > Thanks a lot, Chadwell ji, for looking at all posts in this genera in efi. > Catalogue of life > <http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/details/species/id/4c16f03bb909a78dc595a58aacaf4294> > states *Primula petiolaris *Wall. to be an accepted name. > > May I request Rawat ji to pl. post other images. > > > On 10 November 2016 at 05:05, [email protected] m > <[email protected]> <[email protected] om > <[email protected]>> wrote: > > I am unsure about this. Richards observes that few species have been so > misunderstood as Primula petiolaris Wallich. > > I see that it is no longer an accepted number in 'The Plant List'. *So > what has replaced it? Primula gracilipes perhaps?* > > It is still on the 'Primula World' site but the only images are of > cultivated plants and some of these could easily be hybrids. > > Cannot say the image shot in Uttarakhand matches the images on the above > site. > > According to Richards it is found in Nepal & Sikkim plus two early records > from Kumaon. Flowers of Himalaya says Uttaranachal to Sikkim @ > 2400-3600m. > > Richards says throughout Nepal sometimes growing and hybridising with > Primula gracilipes. > > *I am uncertain as to the differences between P.petiolaris and > P.gracilipes. They are closely related. Richards considers the latter > might well be considered a subspecies of the former! Differing in the > almost stemless (those in the photo do have stalks), tightly clasped > blunter sepal-lobes (which cannot be observed in the image) and the total > absence of meal - though sometimes meal is not prominent. * > > *Is there anyone who can comment with authority? And tell us the correct > nomenclature/taxonomic treatment?* > > *Flowers of the Himalaya say that Primula gracilipes is the most frequent > petiolarid Primula in Bhutan (and Sikkim). They consider P,petiolaris much > smaller and the two may be CONSPECIFIC i.e. being the same species!* > > > > On Thursday, June 12, 2014 at 9:31:07 AM UTC+1, D.S Rawat wrote: > > This Primula also shot in Munsyari area Uttarakhand resembles to *Primula > petiolaris* Wallich with its irregularly toothed petals. > Validation (or otherwise) is requested. > > Dr D.S.Rawat > Department of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of Agriculture & > Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIA > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com > <[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] . > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix > <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com > <[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] . > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix > <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
