Dear Caley, In your reactions I think you have put the finger where it hurts, where the comparison is indeed entirely fraught. I especially like your remarks: (1) ... the middle (even late) Vedic situation ... derives directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis of food production. (2) ... the focus is really on the poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. (3) ... we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks". It is remarkable how arguments about ancient India often try to move around on the map monolithic and mono-linguistic communities, without inner differentiation and inner (social, sociolinguistic) dynamics. Your work is an exception, as is the work of Heesterman and a few others. All best, Jan
On Sun, 9 May 2021 at 18:12, Caley Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Artur, > > I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict > themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers > or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind > of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-śrauta > system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one > which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as > consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the > poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much > mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case > that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual > could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, > merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say > the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are > focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed > to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to > enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a > vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual > ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is > happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative > justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean > that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write > about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine > Buddhist dhāraṇīs, for instance, don't have much to say about urban > logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic > civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from > which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political > organizations that employed them. > > On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic > tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the > Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that > would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal > to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and > would love to know more. > > Best, > Caley > > On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Tak. >> >> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >> >> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist (Caley: <I >> am not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >> point.>). >> >> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >> >> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >> >> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible to >> them linguistically - and conceptually? >> >> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of >> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >> >> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >> the Vedic tradition? >> >> Best, >> >> Artur >> >> >> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >> Wolny >> od wirusów. www.avast.com >> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >> <#m_-7264235053288402029_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >> [email protected]> napisał(a): >> >>> Dear Jan, >>> >>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >>> always useful to have a digital one too. >>> >>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings >>> are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of >>> anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, >>> the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We know >>> of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours of >>> Provençe) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art yet >>> that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these >>> "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much more >>> immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely >>> they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country >>> (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. >>> Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, no? >>> Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>> >>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>> post-Alexander and post-Aśoka we may have a very different story but I am >>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-Aśoka then we are >>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>> >>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>> >>> Best, >>> Caley >>> >>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear All, >>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking place >>>> at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic it is >>>> entirely online: the announcement (http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) >>>> is accessible on several lists. >>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at the >>>> beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive references >>>> to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched theory is >>>> found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of early India* >>>> (Leiden >>>> 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred briefly to his comparison between >>>> Brahmins (and their cultural context) and the German Nazis (and their >>>> cultural context). On this specific reference by Johannes Bronkhorst during >>>> the symposium, I posed a question in the special section set up by the >>>> organizers of the conference: "Questions and answers will be conducted over >>>> a separate service, sli.do." >>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not pass >>>> the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- who >>>> wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such comparison" >>>> -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such as this >>>> Indology List. >>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* book >>>> of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the anonymous >>>> moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), where >>>> we read: >>>> >>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not like >>>> them. >>>> ... >>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>> Reich. >>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of German >>>> Art >>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted urban >>>> and >>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>> >>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a very >>>> different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing Brahmins >>>> in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me in: >>>> >>>> “From Fuzzy-Edged ‘Family-Veda’ to the Canonical Śākhas of the >>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.” In: *Vedic Śākhās: Past, >>>> Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, >>>> Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. Witzel, p. >>>> 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>> >>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>> >>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation of >>>> the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural >>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of >>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, >>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present >>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of India*, >>>> 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>> “’Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pramāṇa*s in the >>>> history of Sāṁkhya.” *Études de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalité en >>>> Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>> and Houben 2019: >>>> “Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual >>>> Evidence.” [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and ancient Iranian >>>> ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic Thought, Ritual, and >>>> Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh Umakant Thite’s >>>> Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. Bausch, pp. 182-210 >>>> (References to this article integrated in id., “Bibliography,” pp. >>>> 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>> >>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful discussions. >>>> >>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>> >>>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>> >>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>> >>>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>> >>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>> >>>> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120) >>>> >>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <[email protected]>* >>>> >>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>* >>>> >>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info> >>>> >>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction, >>>> transmission >>>> >>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <[email protected]>* *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>* *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
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