Dear Colieagues, Re Heesterman's rajasuya text. Here's what I was able to find:
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.142124/2015.142124.The-Ancient-Indian-Royal-Consecration_djvu.txt Best, Artur <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Wolny od wirusów. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#m_-855663695347796132_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> pon., 10 maj 2021 o 16:26 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < [email protected]> napisał(a): > Dear Joanna and Jan (and other interested parties), > > I have a pdf of Heesterman 1957, but it is just an image scan not > "searchable" unfortunately. > > Best, > Caley > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:58 AM Jan E.M. Houben <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Dear Joanna, >> I have Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya but I don't have a scan or >> pdf... >> No result on archive.org either. >> Needless to say I would be really grateful in case anyone does have such >> a scan and can share it... >> Best regards, >> Jan >> >> On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 00:24, Joanna Jurewicz <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks. >>> >>> Am I right that a Vaiśya is one among those who sprinkled water over a >>> king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also >>> to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of >>> Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers... >>> >>> best wishes, >>> >>> Joanna >>> >>> --- >>> >>> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz >>> >>> Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia Studies >>> >>> Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies >>> >>> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw >>> >>> ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28 >>> >>> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland >>> >>> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages >>> >>> College of Human Sciences >>> >>> UNISA >>> >>> Pretoria, RSA >>> >>> Member of Academia Europaea >>> >>> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz >>> >>> >>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>> [email protected]> napisał(a): >>> >>>> Dear Artur, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic >>>> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. >>>> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published >>>> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this >>>> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in >>>> Bloomsbury'*s >>>> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). I >>>> will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my thinking >>>> about the *yajña *a great deal (too name just a few: Proferes 2007 *Vedic >>>> Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara 2016 "One >>>> Yajña, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yajña Between >>>> Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization >>>> of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the same volume as >>>> Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>> Contextual Evidence.” ed. by Lauren Bausch) >>>> >>>> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic >>>> performativity/textuality ( >>>> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas >>>> ) >>>> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through >>>> that specific context >>>> ( >>>> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice >>>> ) >>>> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Caley >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Caley, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >>>>> please, attach here the list of your publications? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Artur >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>>> Wolny >>>>> od wirusów. www.avast.com >>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>>> <#m_-855663695347796132_m_3322488977977144814_m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>> >>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith <[email protected]> >>>>> napisał(a): >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Artur, >>>>>> >>>>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>>>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >>>>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a >>>>>> kind >>>>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-śrauta >>>>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>>>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>>>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on >>>>>> the >>>>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>>>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the >>>>>> case >>>>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>>>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, >>>>>> merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say >>>>>> the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are >>>>>> focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed >>>>>> to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>>>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>>>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the >>>>>> ritual >>>>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>>>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological >>>>>> narrative >>>>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>>>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't >>>>>> write >>>>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >>>>>> Buddhist dhāraṇīs, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>>>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>>>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>>>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>>>>> organizations that employed them. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic >>>>>> tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the >>>>>> Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >>>>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >>>>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>>>>> would love to know more. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Caley >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Tak. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>>>>> (Caley: <I am not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic >>>>>>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible >>>>>>> to them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>>>>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban >>>>>>> spaces of >>>>>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >>>>>>> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the Vedic tradition? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Artur >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>>>>> Wolny >>>>>>> od wirusów. www.avast.com >>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>>>>> <#m_-855663695347796132_m_3322488977977144814_m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>>>>> [email protected]> napisał(a): >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but >>>>>>>> it's always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my >>>>>>>> musings are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism >>>>>>>> as a >>>>>>>> kind of anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at >>>>>>>> all. >>>>>>>> Rather, the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were >>>>>>>> *urban*! We know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam >>>>>>>> to the troubadours of Provençe) who loved to represent the bucolic >>>>>>>> scene in >>>>>>>> their verbal art yet that art was performed at a courtly non-rural >>>>>>>> setting. >>>>>>>> So are all these "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. >>>>>>>> There is a much more immediate reason why urban Nazis might have >>>>>>>> preferred >>>>>>>> landscapes, namely they figured themselves to be natural inherent >>>>>>>> landlords >>>>>>>> of the country (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the >>>>>>>> government. Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> model, no? Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of >>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>>>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>>>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the >>>>>>>> basis >>>>>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>>>>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that >>>>>>>> existence and >>>>>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that >>>>>>>> urban >>>>>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>>>>> post-Alexander and post-Aśoka we may have a very different story but I >>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-Aśoka then we >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of >>>>>>>> aesthetic >>>>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Caley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing >>>>>>>>> epidemic >>>>>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several >>>>>>>>> lists. >>>>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at >>>>>>>>> the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive >>>>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and >>>>>>>>> well-researched >>>>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture >>>>>>>>> of early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred >>>>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural >>>>>>>>> context) and >>>>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific >>>>>>>>> reference >>>>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the >>>>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: >>>>>>>>> "Questions and >>>>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not >>>>>>>>> pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online >>>>>>>>> questions -- >>>>>>>>> who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such >>>>>>>>> comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora >>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>> as this Indology List. >>>>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers >>>>>>>>> to pp. >>>>>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), >>>>>>>>> where we read: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not >>>>>>>>> like them. >>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>>>>>>> Reich. >>>>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>>>>> German Art >>>>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>>>>>> urban and >>>>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a >>>>>>>>> very different analysis of the situation of the community of >>>>>>>>> practicing >>>>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed >>>>>>>>> by me >>>>>>>>> in: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> “From Fuzzy-Edged ‘Family-Veda’ to the Canonical Śākhas of the >>>>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.” In: *Vedic Śākhās: >>>>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. >>>>>>>>> Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>>>>>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the >>>>>>>>> situation of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India >>>>>>>>> are (1) >>>>>>>>> "natural selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any >>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>> medium of transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus >>>>>>>>> written texts, inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is >>>>>>>>> added >>>>>>>>> and at present the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> context of an *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben >>>>>>>>> 2019 >>>>>>>>> (see also: Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological >>>>>>>>> History of India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>>>>> “’Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pramāṇa*s in >>>>>>>>> the history of Sāṁkhya.” *Études de Lettres* 2001.3: *La >>>>>>>>> rationalité en Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: >>>>>>>>> 165-194. >>>>>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>>>>> “Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.” [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic >>>>>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>>>>> Umakant Thite’s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. >>>>>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>>>>> “Bibliography,” pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <[email protected]>* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>>>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>>>>>>> <https://www.classicalindia.info> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: >>>>>>>>> construction, transmission >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Jan E.M. Houben* >> >> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >> >> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >> >> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >> >> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >> >> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120) >> >> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <[email protected]>* >> >> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>* >> >> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info> >> >> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction, >> transmission >> >> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > [email protected] > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >
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