Dear Joanna and Jan (and other interested parties), I have a pdf of Heesterman 1957, but it is just an image scan not "searchable" unfortunately.
Best, Caley On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:58 AM Jan E.M. Houben <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Joanna, > I have Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya but I don't have a scan or > pdf... > No result on archive.org either. > Needless to say I would be really grateful in case anyone does have such a > scan and can share it... > Best regards, > Jan > > On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 00:24, Joanna Jurewicz <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks. >> >> Am I right that a Vaiśya is one among those who sprinkled water over a >> king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also >> to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of >> Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers... >> >> best wishes, >> >> Joanna >> >> --- >> >> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz >> >> Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia Studies >> >> Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies >> >> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw >> >> ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28 >> >> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland >> >> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages >> >> College of Human Sciences >> >> UNISA >> >> Pretoria, RSA >> >> Member of Academia Europaea >> >> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz >> >> >> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >> [email protected]> napisał(a): >> >>> Dear Artur, >>> >>> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic >>> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. >>> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published >>> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this >>> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in >>> Bloomsbury'*s >>> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). I >>> will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my thinking >>> about the *yajña *a great deal (too name just a few: Proferes 2007 *Vedic >>> Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara 2016 "One >>> Yajña, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yajña Between >>> Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization >>> of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the same volume as >>> Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>> Contextual Evidence.” ed. by Lauren Bausch) >>> >>> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic >>> performativity/textuality ( >>> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas >>> ) >>> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through >>> that specific context >>> ( >>> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice >>> ) >>> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) >>> >>> Best, >>> Caley >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Caley, >>>> >>>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >>>> please, attach here the list of your publications? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Artur >>>> >>>> >>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>> Wolny >>>> od wirusów. www.avast.com >>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>> <#m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>> >>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith <[email protected]> >>>> napisał(a): >>>> >>>>> Dear Artur, >>>>> >>>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >>>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a >>>>> kind >>>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-śrauta >>>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the >>>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case >>>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, >>>>> merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say >>>>> the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are >>>>> focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed >>>>> to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual >>>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative >>>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write >>>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >>>>> Buddhist dhāraṇīs, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>>>> organizations that employed them. >>>>> >>>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic >>>>> tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the >>>>> Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >>>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >>>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>>>> would love to know more. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Caley >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Tak. >>>>>> >>>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>>>> >>>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>>>> (Caley: <I am not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic >>>>>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>>>> >>>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>>>> >>>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>>>> >>>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible >>>>>> to them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>>>> >>>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>>>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces >>>>>> of >>>>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>>>> >>>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >>>>>> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >>>>>> the Vedic tradition? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Artur >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>>>> Wolny >>>>>> od wirusów. www.avast.com >>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>>>> <#m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>>> >>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>>>> [email protected]> napisał(a): >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >>>>>>> always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my >>>>>>> musings are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> kind of anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. >>>>>>> Rather, the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were >>>>>>> *urban*! We know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam >>>>>>> to the troubadours of Provençe) who loved to represent the bucolic >>>>>>> scene in >>>>>>> their verbal art yet that art was performed at a courtly non-rural >>>>>>> setting. >>>>>>> So are all these "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. >>>>>>> There is a much more immediate reason why urban Nazis might have >>>>>>> preferred >>>>>>> landscapes, namely they figured themselves to be natural inherent >>>>>>> landlords >>>>>>> of the country (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the >>>>>>> government. Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> model, no? Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of >>>>>>> course >>>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>>>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the >>>>>>> basis >>>>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>>>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that >>>>>>> urban >>>>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>>>> post-Alexander and post-Aśoka we may have a very different story but I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-Aśoka then we are >>>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of >>>>>>> aesthetic >>>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Caley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing >>>>>>>> epidemic >>>>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several >>>>>>>> lists. >>>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at >>>>>>>> the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive >>>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and >>>>>>>> well-researched >>>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of >>>>>>>> early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred >>>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural >>>>>>>> context) and >>>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific >>>>>>>> reference >>>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the >>>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not >>>>>>>> pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online >>>>>>>> questions -- >>>>>>>> who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such >>>>>>>> comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora >>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>> as this Indology List. >>>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers >>>>>>>> to pp. >>>>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), >>>>>>>> where we read: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not >>>>>>>> like them. >>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>>>>>> Reich. >>>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>>>> German Art >>>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>>>>> urban and >>>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a >>>>>>>> very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing >>>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed >>>>>>>> by me >>>>>>>> in: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> “From Fuzzy-Edged ‘Family-Veda’ to the Canonical Śākhas of the >>>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.” In: *Vedic Śākhās: >>>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. >>>>>>>> Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>>>>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* >>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation >>>>>>>> of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) >>>>>>>> "natural >>>>>>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written >>>>>>>> texts, >>>>>>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at >>>>>>>> present >>>>>>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>>>>>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>>>>>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of >>>>>>>> India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>>>> “’Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pramāṇa*s in >>>>>>>> the history of Sāṁkhya.” *Études de Lettres* 2001.3: *La >>>>>>>> rationalité en Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: >>>>>>>> 165-194. >>>>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>>>> “Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.” [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic >>>>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>>>> Umakant Thite’s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. >>>>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>>>> “Bibliography,” pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <[email protected]>* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: >>>>>>>> construction, transmission >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120) > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <[email protected]>* > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>* > > *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info> > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >
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