Among other formats *pdf + text* --- fully searchable. Artur
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Wolny od wirusów. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> pon., 10 maj 2021 o 17:46 Artur Karp <[email protected]> napisał(a): > Dear Colieagues, > > Re Heesterman's rajasuya text. Here's what I was able to find: > > > https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.142124/2015.142124.The-Ancient-Indian-Royal-Consecration_djvu.txt > > Best, > > Artur > > > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> > Wolny > od wirusów. www.avast.com > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> > <#m_104675293968725488_m_-855663695347796132_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > pon., 10 maj 2021 o 16:26 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < > [email protected]> napisał(a): > >> Dear Joanna and Jan (and other interested parties), >> >> I have a pdf of Heesterman 1957, but it is just an image scan not >> "searchable" unfortunately. >> >> Best, >> Caley >> >> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:58 AM Jan E.M. Houben <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Joanna, >>> I have Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya but I don't have a scan or >>> pdf... >>> No result on archive.org either. >>> Needless to say I would be really grateful in case anyone does have such >>> a scan and can share it... >>> Best regards, >>> Jan >>> >>> On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 00:24, Joanna Jurewicz <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks. >>>> >>>> Am I right that a Vaiśya is one among those who sprinkled water over a >>>> king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also >>>> to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of >>>> Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers... >>>> >>>> best wishes, >>>> >>>> Joanna >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz >>>> >>>> Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia Studies >>>> >>>> Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies >>>> >>>> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw >>>> >>>> ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28 >>>> >>>> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland >>>> >>>> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages >>>> >>>> College of Human Sciences >>>> >>>> UNISA >>>> >>>> Pretoria, RSA >>>> >>>> Member of Academia Europaea >>>> >>>> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz >>>> >>>> >>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>> [email protected]> napisał(a): >>>> >>>>> Dear Artur, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic >>>>> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. >>>>> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published >>>>> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this >>>>> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in >>>>> Bloomsbury'*s >>>>> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). >>>>> I will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my >>>>> thinking about the *yajña *a great deal (too name just a few: >>>>> Proferes 2007 *Vedic Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, >>>>> *Ferrara >>>>> 2016 "One Yajña, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yajña >>>>> Between Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The >>>>> Sacralization of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the >>>>> same volume as Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: >>>>> Textual and Contextual Evidence.” ed. by Lauren Bausch) >>>>> >>>>> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic >>>>> performativity/textuality ( >>>>> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas >>>>> ) >>>>> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through >>>>> that specific context >>>>> ( >>>>> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice >>>>> ) >>>>> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Caley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Caley, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >>>>>> please, attach here the list of your publications? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Artur >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>>>> Wolny >>>>>> od wirusów. www.avast.com >>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>>>> <#m_104675293968725488_m_-855663695347796132_m_3322488977977144814_m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>>> >>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith <[email protected]> >>>>>> napisał(a): >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Artur, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>>>>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy >>>>>>> financiers >>>>>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a >>>>>>> kind >>>>>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-śrauta >>>>>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>>>>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>>>>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>>>>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the >>>>>>> case >>>>>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>>>>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, >>>>>>> craftsmen, merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> would say the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and >>>>>>> rather are focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons >>>>>>> (as opposed to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>>>>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>>>>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the >>>>>>> ritual >>>>>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>>>>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological >>>>>>> narrative >>>>>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>>>>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't >>>>>>> write >>>>>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I >>>>>>> imagine >>>>>>> Buddhist dhāraṇīs, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>>>>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>>>>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>>>>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>>>>>> organizations that employed them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming >>>>>>> Vedic tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and >>>>>>> "the Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good >>>>>>> deal >>>>>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>>>>>> would love to know more. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Caley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tak. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>>>>>> (Caley: <I am not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic >>>>>>>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible >>>>>>>> to them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>>>>>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban >>>>>>>> spaces of >>>>>>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find >>>>>>>> these kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly >>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>> but in the Vedic tradition? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Artur >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>>>>>> Wolny >>>>>>>> od wirusów. www.avast.com >>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>>>>>> <#m_104675293968725488_m_-855663695347796132_m_3322488977977144814_m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> napisał(a): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but >>>>>>>>> it's always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my >>>>>>>>> musings are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism >>>>>>>>> as a >>>>>>>>> kind of anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at >>>>>>>>> all. >>>>>>>>> Rather, the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were >>>>>>>>> *urban*! We know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam >>>>>>>>> to the troubadours of Provençe) who loved to represent the bucolic >>>>>>>>> scene in >>>>>>>>> their verbal art yet that art was performed at a courtly non-rural >>>>>>>>> setting. >>>>>>>>> So are all these "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. >>>>>>>>> There is a much more immediate reason why urban Nazis might have >>>>>>>>> preferred >>>>>>>>> landscapes, namely they figured themselves to be natural inherent >>>>>>>>> landlords >>>>>>>>> of the country (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the >>>>>>>>> government. Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant >>>>>>>>> in this >>>>>>>>> model, no? Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of >>>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can >>>>>>>>> vote, that >>>>>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>>>>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>>>>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in >>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the >>>>>>>>> basis >>>>>>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that >>>>>>>>> existence and >>>>>>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that >>>>>>>>> urban >>>>>>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>>>>>> post-Alexander and post-Aśoka we may have a very different story but >>>>>>>>> I am >>>>>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-Aśoka then we >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of >>>>>>>>> aesthetic >>>>>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition >>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Caley >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>>>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing >>>>>>>>>> epidemic >>>>>>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several >>>>>>>>>> lists. >>>>>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory >>>>>>>>>> at the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and >>>>>>>>>> extensive >>>>>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and >>>>>>>>>> well-researched >>>>>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture >>>>>>>>>> of early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred >>>>>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural >>>>>>>>>> context) and >>>>>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific >>>>>>>>>> reference >>>>>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: >>>>>>>>>> "Questions and >>>>>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did >>>>>>>>>> not pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online >>>>>>>>>> questions -- who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There >>>>>>>>>> was no >>>>>>>>>> such comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other >>>>>>>>>> fora >>>>>>>>>> such as this Indology List. >>>>>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>>>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>>>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- >>>>>>>>>> will have >>>>>>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers >>>>>>>>>> to pp. >>>>>>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), >>>>>>>>>> where we read: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not >>>>>>>>>> like them. >>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the >>>>>>>>>> Third Reich. >>>>>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>>>>>> German Art >>>>>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>>>>>>> urban and >>>>>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since >>>>>>>>>> a very different analysis of the situation of the community of >>>>>>>>>> practicing >>>>>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed >>>>>>>>>> by me >>>>>>>>>> in: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> “From Fuzzy-Edged ‘Family-Veda’ to the Canonical Śākhas of the >>>>>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.” In: *Vedic Śākhās: >>>>>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and >>>>>>>>>> M. Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again >>>>>>>>>> be available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* >>>>>>>>>> accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the >>>>>>>>>> situation of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India >>>>>>>>>> are (1) >>>>>>>>>> "natural selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any >>>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>>> medium of transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus >>>>>>>>>> written texts, inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing >>>>>>>>>> is added >>>>>>>>>> and at present the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> context of an *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben >>>>>>>>>> 2019 >>>>>>>>>> (see also: Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological >>>>>>>>>> History of India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>>>>>> “’Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pramāṇa*s in >>>>>>>>>> the history of Sāṁkhya.” *Études de Lettres* 2001.3: *La >>>>>>>>>> rationalité en Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. >>>>>>>>>> Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>>>>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>>>>>> “Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.” [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic >>>>>>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>>>>>> Umakant Thite’s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. >>>>>>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>>>>>> “Bibliography,” pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <[email protected]>* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>>>>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>>>>>>>> <https://www.classicalindia.info> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: >>>>>>>>>> construction, transmission >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>> >>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>> >>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>> >>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>> >>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>> >>> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120) >>> >>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <[email protected]>* >>> >>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>* >>> >>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info> >>> >>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction, >>> transmission >>> >>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >
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