Dear Joanna, I have Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya but I don't have a scan or pdf... No result on archive.org either. Needless to say I would be really grateful in case anyone does have such a scan and can share it... Best regards, Jan
On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 00:24, Joanna Jurewicz <[email protected]> wrote: > Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks. > > Am I right that a Vaiśya is one among those who sprinkled water over a > king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also > to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of > Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers... > > best wishes, > > Joanna > > --- > > Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz > > Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia Studies > > Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies > > Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw > > ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28 > > 00-927 Warszawa , Poland > > Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages > > College of Human Sciences > > UNISA > > Pretoria, RSA > > Member of Academia Europaea > > https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz > > > niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < > [email protected]> napisał(a): > >> Dear Artur, >> >> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic >> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. >> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published >> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this >> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in >> Bloomsbury'*s >> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). I >> will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my thinking >> about the *yajña *a great deal (too name just a few: Proferes 2007 *Vedic >> Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara 2016 "One >> Yajña, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yajña Between >> Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization >> of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the same volume as >> Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >> Contextual Evidence.” ed. by Lauren Bausch) >> >> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic >> performativity/textuality ( >> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas >> ) >> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through >> that specific context >> ( >> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice >> ) >> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) >> >> Best, >> Caley >> >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Dear Caley, >>> >>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >>> please, attach here the list of your publications? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Artur >>> >>> >>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>> Wolny >>> od wirusów. www.avast.com >>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>> <#m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> >>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith <[email protected]> >>> napisał(a): >>> >>>> Dear Artur, >>>> >>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind >>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-śrauta >>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the >>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case >>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, >>>> merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say >>>> the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are >>>> focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed >>>> to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual >>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative >>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write >>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >>>> Buddhist dhāraṇīs, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>>> organizations that employed them. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic >>>> tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the >>>> Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>>> would love to know more. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Caley >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Tak. >>>>> >>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>>> >>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>>> (Caley: <I am not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic >>>>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>>> >>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>>> >>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>>> >>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible to >>>>> them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>>> >>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces >>>>> of >>>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>>> >>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >>>>> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >>>>> the Vedic tradition? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Artur >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>>> Wolny >>>>> od wirusów. www.avast.com >>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> >>>>> <#m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>> >>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>>> [email protected]> napisał(a): >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >>>>>> always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>>> >>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings >>>>>> are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of >>>>>> anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, >>>>>> the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We >>>>>> know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours >>>>>> of >>>>>> Provençe) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art >>>>>> yet >>>>>> that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these >>>>>> "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much >>>>>> more >>>>>> immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely >>>>>> they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country >>>>>> (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. >>>>>> Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, >>>>>> no? >>>>>> Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of >>>>>> course >>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, >>>>>> that >>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>>> >>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence >>>>>> and >>>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that >>>>>> urban >>>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>>> post-Alexander and post-Aśoka we may have a very different story but I am >>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-Aśoka then we are >>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of >>>>>> aesthetic >>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Caley >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing >>>>>>> epidemic >>>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several >>>>>>> lists. >>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at >>>>>>> the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive >>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and >>>>>>> well-researched >>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of >>>>>>> early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred >>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific >>>>>>> reference >>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the >>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not >>>>>>> pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online >>>>>>> questions -- >>>>>>> who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such >>>>>>> comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora >>>>>>> such >>>>>>> as this Indology List. >>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to >>>>>>> pp. >>>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), >>>>>>> where we read: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not >>>>>>> like them. >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>>>>> Reich. >>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>>> German Art >>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>>>> urban and >>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a >>>>>>> very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing >>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> in: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> “From Fuzzy-Edged ‘Family-Veda’ to the Canonical Śākhas of the >>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.” In: *Vedic Śākhās: >>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. >>>>>>> Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>>>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* >>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation >>>>>>> of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) >>>>>>> "natural >>>>>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written >>>>>>> texts, >>>>>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at >>>>>>> present >>>>>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>>>>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>>>>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of >>>>>>> India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>>> “’Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pramāṇa*s in the >>>>>>> history of Sāṁkhya.” *Études de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalité en >>>>>>> Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>>> “Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.” [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic >>>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>>> Umakant Thite’s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. >>>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>>> “Bibliography,” pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <[email protected]>* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction, >>>>>>> transmission >>>>>>> >>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > [email protected] > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <[email protected]>* *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>* *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
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