where would you put Fantom in this list? 2010/9/10 Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com>
> Hi Tommy, > > You're making a lot of good points. > > I also think that in terms of ease of migration path from Java, the order > is 1) Groovy, 2) Scala and 3) Clojure (with a big gap behind number 2). > > Clojure is a great Lisp but the fact that it doesn't support OOP is a deal > breaker for a lot of organizations, which means that it will probably only > ever be used as a glue scripting language. > > -- > Cédric > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Tommy <tommy....@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'm actually glad to hear someone saying Groovy is more prevalent than >> Scala. From what I hear, Scala seems to be getting much more >> traction. >> >> You mentioned you'd chose Scala over Clojure because it's easier to >> migrate to. What do you mean by that? Migrate from what and to >> what? Are you sure your company needs to adopt Scala for a strategic >> reason? >> >> I'd argue Groovy is even easier to migrate to. By migrate, I mean >> from an organisation skills perspective. Groovy/Grails is very easy >> to pick up, especially for Java developers. It's especially good for >> quick/prototype/RAD type apps. It's also great for maintenance/ >> support perspective, parse XML, testing (both Groovy and Java code), >> scripts to automate day to day task, just great duct tape language in >> general. >> >> Now I'm not saying Scala is no good (I plan to start learning it soon >> after I finish my Haskell subject) but it really depends on the >> company. From my experience, companies don't decide to building >> realiable, robust, enterprise apps all the time whereas the small, >> quick, "out the door" apps are more common and Groovy/Grails probably >> suits better. >> >> IMHO, it's difficult for Scala to gain widespread use until the >> industry realises the benefit of functional/declarative languages. >> From what I hear, the power of Scala comes from its functional >> aspects, compatibility with Java is merely a carrot to get the Java >> community across. From my limited experience with Haskell so far, >> functional programming requires a different mindset from imperative >> languages and frankly, I don't think the industry is ready for it >> yet. Just remember how long it took for the industry to move from >> procedural languages to OO. If all programmers out there come from a >> Computer Science background then transition to Scala may not be too >> difficult but sadly, that's not the case. >> >> From a management/strategic perspective, it's probably more risky to >> adopt Scala too. Imagine a super-duper Scala programming builds this >> awesome enterprise app and leaves. Where are you going to hire the >> skills to support, maintain and extend it? Even if you do find the >> skills, he or she will probably be just as expensive as the super- >> duper Scala programmer that built it in the first place. >> >> Tommy. >> >> On Sep 10, 12:17 pm, Sean Griffin <trenchgui...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > My intention is not as sensational as my subject, but it's succinct so >> > I'll go with it. >> > >> > In the popular JDK 7 conversation someone made this quote: "On the JVM >> > platform there are only two other languages that I'd consider >> > reasonable for adoption: Scala and Clojure." It's an interesting >> > statement to me given the current culture in my company. I actually >> > agree with this quote, but my reason isn't very scientific: those two >> > just "feel" like hardened options to me that move the thought barrier >> > forward more than others. Between the two I've chosen Scala because >> > a) I didn't like Lisp when I looked into it in college and b) Scala >> > wasn't so black and white, making it easier for me to migrate >> > gradually. >> > >> > Anyway, the point of my post is to discuss why Groovy is not often >> > mentioned in this group and is specifically left out of the quote >> > above. I don't like dynamic languages, so that's my reason for not >> > looking into it much, but people seem to like it. In my company it's >> > taken off like wildfire. I've tried valiantly to jumpstart Scala in >> > my organization, not because of fanboyism but because I honestly think/ >> > thought it would be the next step forward in the industry and I wanted >> > a head start. Despite this, Groovy is more popular hands down. I'm >> > just going off a feeling, but I'd place a bet that for every Scala >> > developer in my org there are 20 Groovy developers. Granted, most of >> > Groovy's usage is in tests, but it's making its way into production >> > code, particularly in the way of Grails. >> > >> > So I'd like to hear from others out there why this might be. I know >> > Groovy can be just Java and that you can gradually make your code more >> > "groovy", so it's easier to learn I guess? But that doesn't actually >> > make a ton of sense to me when I think about it because if I look at >> > some Groovy code that's really taking advantage of those features, >> > it's going to look so different than base Java that I suspect it >> > wouldn't be so different than a Java developer looking at someone's >> > Scala code. And the Scala code is type safe! And better supports >> > concurrency/parallelism! (I think). Is it the near nightmare that >> > plagued Scala 2.7 in the tooling space? >> > >> > I'm curious about everyone's thoughts... >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "The Java Posse" group. >> To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> >> > > > -- > Cédric > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "The Java Posse" group. > To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. 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