Marc,
Good thoughts - good post. The thing here is a different perception on
Microsoft's part on how to attack (gain an in-road) into the application
server space - this space is what they are going after (as compared to the
'server' market) - including the infrastructure (tools, dev. environments,
...) and platform (COM+ = MTS + COM).
Their strategy (and I think it is a good one) is to leverage the client side
development stuff *into* the distributed application space and provide a
seamless application server environment in which to execute applications.
Not only this, but they will co-opt (through translation tools) Java
components (classes, EJB) making 'migration' (assimilation) easier.
To your point on the client driving the server - and to my point that
interconnects becoming transparent does not change the equation (I don't
care where my application runs, or how many machines it runs on, or which OS
these machines run, or what hardware the OS runs on,...) - MS *can* and will
drive client application development into the server space by making
invisible distributed application development (.NET) and by providing a
managed distributed execution environment (COM+, attributed programming,
unification of object models) - their version of an app. server.
So, what to do? Sun is in a difficult position for obvious reasons vis.
Linux Solaris. The rest of the reasoning for Java open source, etc. goes
here.
BTW, I think IBM is going to come out of this smelling like roses - whoever
is coming up with their strategy is doing a great job.
It occurs to me that the developer group may not be the most appropriate
place for these postings. If this is the case please let me know and I will
cease and desist. Anyone who wants to send email to me directly:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Very best regards,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of marc fleury
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:18 AM
To: jBoss Developer
Subject: RE: [jBoss-Dev] Sun ONE response to MS
well ok...
there was a thread on /. 2 days ago about people abandoning linux on the
client and going with windows. well duh! I dropped linux on my laptop and
work primarily on a win2000 VAIO bad ass machine that I am VERY happy with.
My server? linux. They come with win2000 I put linux on them. Why? cause
it stable, manageable remote, comes with all the goodies I want and I (now)
know how to secure them easily. Ease of use, ease of use.
That is the one thing that I find funny in this new battlefield. Microsoft
has a tradition of "eating from the bottom" and they are finding themselves
eaten ALIVE by small linux servers. I was reading a "analyst" calling
win2000 a "failure" because it was "failing" to kill the server market and
few sites with *nix where switching to win2000.
They bet the farm on win2000 as a IT server OS. At the top they have
Solaris at the bottom they have Linux. Are they "irrelevant" on the server
side technology standard driving????
Dont get me wrong MS is a mighty company, I love win2000 on my laptop (use
all day long) and I wouldn't go with Linux on my laptop for anything. But
most of MS pattern was coming "from behind" leveraging a dominant position
in the OS CLIENT. (think of Office, Explorer etc).
Where is the dominant position on the SERVER. How much can a client
monopoly drive SERVER technology. They *obviously* don't really understand
the "service web" despite all the .net noise. The article was answering a
dummy (i mean the question showed ignorance). So can they leverage a CLIENT
monopoly on the SERVER? well it seems NOT MUCH. HTML as a client standard
has made MS irrelevant. XML as a data formatting standard is making
proprietary formats of storage irrelevant (blurb about Balmer putting his
foot in his mouth).
Finally J2EE is today 90% of the market place for APPLICATION SERVERS IN
GENERAL (all categories C server, C++) where is the dominant position there
as well to drive their standards?
So I believe microsoft is *almost* irrelevant ;) on the web. Customers
won't go in a "lock-in" on server because win2000 isn't going places there,
linux is, solaris will remain. So their traditional "patterns" are not
applicable anymore. I trust them to find something interesting but I am not
shaking in my boots *yet*.
Ok onto SUN. SUN KNOWS THAT .NET IS A "BOTTOM UP" THREAT AND THAT IBM AND
BEA ARE NOT GOING TO FIGHT IT OFF. .NET will be a mass market technology,
J2EE is still "ivory tower IT". Just like Solaris sits on top of Unix, BEA
will sit on top of J2EE. US? WE SIT AT THE BOTTOM AND WORK OUR WAY UP, THAT
IS HOW WE WILL "SQUEEZE" .NET BEFORE IT IS EVEN A SERIOUS THREAT.
WE ARE A NECESSARY LITTLE FIGHTING DOG IN BATTLING .NET.
So SUN has a big interest in helping us thrive we are their best and natural
ally in fighting Windows and .net. you are right in saying that they must
change their position with respect to Linux and Open Source Java... we are
working on it, it will come
marc
|-----Original Message-----
|From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Peter F. Spicer
|Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 8:11 AM
|To: jBoss Developer
|Subject: RE: [jBoss-Dev] Sun ONE response to MS
|
|
|Microsoft is doing some interesting things with the .NET platform, some of
|which (actually a large part of which) is based on the precepts of the EJB
|architecture ('attribute' based programming and the like). As far as
|competition is concerned they are talented and aggressive. The
|responses in
|the link are good - but this guy is light weight so no victories gained.
|
|The bigger issue for the Java community is will it survive? - looks like it
|will right now, but it is 'closed', Sun has control and MS is putting
|together frameworks which allow the ingest and conversion of Java
|technologies to their platform (COM+). Once this is complete, the millions
|of windows folks will not need to switch - which is OK. BUT, market
|pressures may force us to switch. Hence MS does the usual end-run
|(Browser,
|OpenGL, ....). Sun should let go or at least modify their current strategy
|v. Linux and Java.
|
|BTW, check out the unification of the object models across all languages
|(and extension to same) on the .NET platform - a slick piece of software
|engineering.
|
|Sun BTW is also wrong about the relationship of software to hardware - just
|because the interconnects become transparent does not change the
|fundamental
|equation.
|
|-- Peter
|
|-----Original Message-----
|From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rickard Öberg
|Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 6:38 AM
|To: jBoss Developer
|Subject: [jBoss-Dev] Sun ONE response to MS
|
|
|Hey
|
|In case you haven't seen this:
|http://www.sun.com/dot-com/realitycheck/headsup010205.html
|
|"So.. do you feel lucky.. punk!" "Kablaaam"
|
|Well.. uhm.. I thought it was funny anyway :-)
|
|regards,
| Rickard
|
|--
|Rickard Öberg
|
|Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|
|
|
