Mr. Kundan Kumar, Congratulations for making a very meaningful intervention and raising valid questions(but inconvenient to some people). The Sangh Parivar has seldom respected the Constitution of India. To give a concrete example, Mr. Kalyan Singh, then CM of UP, had given an undertaking to the Supreme Court that he would protect the so-called disputed structure at Ayodhya but he did nothing to fulfil his commitment. In fact, he helped its demolition and for that he was jailed for a day by the Supreme Court. For any meaningful debate, the universe of discourse must be defined and adhered to by both parties and the debate must be based on the rules of logic.This Sangh Parivar has never done. Girish Mishra
> My question is - in both Gujarat and Orissa, the BJP is in power. Why > hasn't > it used lawful means to stop conversions? Why does conversion issue > directly > lead to violence? > > In case of Orissa, it is very clear that the Maoists have killed Swamiji. > This was announced by Vamshadhara Committee of the Maoists within hours of > the killing and then reaffirmed. To keep on insisting that Christians have > killed Swamiji, and to use that to launch deliberate and direct attacks on > a > minority, killing innocent people, burning churches and houses- is that > justified as per our law and constitution. > > Everyone here is aware about the genocides caused through religion across > history - and one generally accepts that the conglomeration of faiths that > we called hinduism have been more tolerant and assimilative then the > semitic > faiths such as christianity and Islam. But must we, in this age and time, > living in a democratic state, take law into our own hands and start > killing > innocent people. Is that not terrorism? > > What we see with Hindutva and Hindutva forces is their effort to copy the > worst aspect of semitic religions and transplant it into hindu faith, > using > religion as the basis of nation building. To transform what is essentially > a > pluralistic, diverse society into a society with a common identity, what > serves better than to stand up "the other" whether it be muslims or > Christians. At the same time, it becomes the route to power, which would > again be used to further this agenda. > > But we must remember that in this modern times, no state can be build > purely > on religions faith or on identity politics - this is specially true of a > nation that is so diverse and pluralistic. The framers of our constitution > understood this very well. We can see what has happened to Pakistan. That > way lies fascism, chaos and perdition. In an age where even a small > minority > can reach out to technology and destroy large number of lives, can we > afford > a nation and polity based on hatred and exclusion. Force doesn't work and > there is always a blowback - see the experience of the world's sole > hyperpower - being forced out of Iraq by next two years, their tails > between > their legs; and Russia thumbing their nose at them. For the same reason, > the > Maoists will be rejected by the vast majority of Indian people, inspite of > the suffering and deprivation that they suffer at the hands on an > indiferent > State and elite. > > We must follow the rule of law; and change the laws where they are unjust > or > impractical. Taking law into one's own hands, specially for carrying out > violence against other citizens, is terrorism and thuggery and a lawful > citizenry should never tolerate that.Friends who feel that christian > missionaries are unfairly "converting" adivasies to christianity are > welcome > to go to the courts; or if the laws are not good enough, get their > representatives to pass new laws. > > Why do they condone violence? Can't the middle class that supports the > lumpen elements to loot and rape realise that sooner or later these > elements > will turn on them. The increasing economic divide and the frustration > among > unemployed youth finds an outlet in such violence - after the Christians > and > Muslims, who would be their next targets- the affluent Hindus? > > Religious fundamentalism and intolerance by the majority community is the > greatest threat to the Indian nation, its constitution and our democracy. > > Regards > > Kundan > > > On 8/30/08, venkata subramanian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Jharkhand Forum <http://www.jharkhand.org.in/> >> <http://egroups.com/list/Jharkhand> >> * * >> >> >> Well , well, Cyprian and Anjali >> >> It needs only a pedestrian intellect to know or guess where the mischief >> came from. Well, if you want to know of World Vision and its notorities >> follow this link to know what they did in Sri Lanka- >> >> >> >> ***************link is removed by moderator******* >> >> I was a contributor to this organisation through my credit card company >> ten >> years ago but when I knew of their activities, I stopped funding them. >> >> And I request Cyprian to visit Tamilnadu, and suit himself with the >> 'adivasi' type of church for him. No other higher caste church will >> offer >> him seats! But I promise Arya Samaj like organisations will initiate >> him >> into Sandhya and give him the sacred thread, and will introduce him to >> All >> the four Vedas. You will be really be made into the purohit that you >> want to >> be. So get your applications typed rightaway. It was your promise. >> Anjali >> will also find to her utter dismay that no castes are there in Arya >> samaji >> world. But for amusement she will find many Nadar Christians, Chetty >> christians, Naidu Christians, Reddy(YSR Reddy) christians and so on. >> >> Anyone listening, do not go by those imposters who assume high moral >> grounds in denouncing Hinduism. >> >> For all of you, I have this information. It is not Hinduism that is >> clinging to caste system. It is the secular state of India that is. In >> one >> stroke , they could have disbanded it in 1947. They did not. Look at the >> overseas Hindu community that has been so successful in spreading >> Hinduism >> far and wide. They did not carry the casteist tag. Iskcon had , by 2006, >> purchased 500 odd churches in Europe alone and converted them into >> Iskcon >> Temples. Villages after Villages are followers of Iskcon. The core point >> is >> that no force, no allopathic medicine in the name of Hallelujah, no >> harvesting of souls, no inquistion, no crusade wars and no aggression >> did >> it. Simply the power of Hinduistic ideals of Yoga ,and Dhyana did it. >> (which these churches are desperately trying to ape) >> >> If Cyprian was curious enough to have called up world vision and even >> the >> Police, why did he not have the same urge to clarify that with Pioneer ? >> I >> have come across many net articles to show the complicity of the Church >> and >> comrades and maoists. They replace one another in many places. The >> maoistsin >> Nepal are principally a christian force. He can get enough material from >> the >> net. >> >> The christists have only one agenda in India. That of grabbing the >> nation. >> They already have pocketed Northeast where a religious separatist >> struggle >> is on with the full backing of the Church. Ask any army man who has >> served >> in the north east and he will tell you with anger the complicity of the >> Church in the separatist insurgency. See this >> http://www.stephen-knapp.com/baptist_church_backs_terrorism.htm >> >> I was also a simple , so called apologetic Hindu fed day in and day out >> by >> the pseudo secular media about these ' innocent Christian' acts. But >> thanks >> to internet and the growing awareness among Hindus about their unique >> identity, **************************** I am no longer apologetic about >> my >> Identity and if someone wishes to call me Right winger, or Hindutva man >> , I >> would rather welcome it. But let the comments come from right minded >> people >> , not from pseudos and christists. >> >> >> >> Venkat >> >> On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 11:01 AM, anjali deshpande >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jharkhand Forum <http://www.jharkhand.org.in/> >>> <http://egroups.com/list/Jharkhand> >>> * * >>> >>> >>> this comes straight from the heart! it was the best i have read yet in >>> this 'academic' discussion. hindus don't convert because they don't >>> which >>> caste to prescribe to the convert. many years ago, in 1981 i think, a >>> hand >>> full of us activists, mostly women, had published a leaflet with a >>> series of >>> questions including one to the effect, 'if all hindus are one, will any >>> dalit be allowed to become a shankaracharya?' we were distributing it >>> at a >>> rally of hindus at india gate in delhi when we were attacked, the >>> clothes of >>> one of our friends were torn off, the other was beaten up badly and >>> they >>> could escape only because a male activist friend joined the 'mob' and >>> said >>> 'hinduism prevents us from doing worse things to women so get away,' >>> and an >>> autorickshaw luckily came our way. these people are dangerous! >>> >>> in the northeast too the 'parivar' is trying hard to coopt 'tribal' >>> gods, >>> build temples where there are none (and why should there be if the >>> people >>> till now lived without needing them?) and christians are building >>> churches >>> (why is there any need for them if people managed without them for so >>> long?). >>> >>> why should identity depend on some buildings devoted to some gods and >>> some >>> rituals? that is what we need to ask and we need to understand how the >>> promotion of identity politics at the international level is being >>> reflected >>> and is stirring up the already murky waters of religious politics in >>> our >>> country. but that becomes academic too! >>> >>> i had begun this only to tell you how your response touched my heart. >>> got >>> carried away. >>> >>> anjali deshpande >>> >>> On 8/29/08, Cyprian Ekka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jharkhand Forum <http://www.jharkhand.org.in/> >>>> <http://egroups.com/list/Jharkhand> >>>> * * >>>> >>>> >>>> Please stop the 'academic' discussion. I am a born Christian, as you >>>> may guess from my name. And, hold your fanatic breath, I am a tribal >>>> too. >>>> Who should know better if my ancestors were Hindus or not? They never >>>> were. >>>> And I am proud they weren't (even if I weren't a Christian). I still >>>> follow >>>> my ancestral religion, customs and traditions. I pray to the 'tribal' >>>> God >>>> (sic) and Christian God too. Todate they have not quarelled with one >>>> another. Neither has the Church told me not to pray to a 'tribal' God. >>>> Why should anyone else have a problem with that? Incidently, I feel >>>> doubly >>>> fortunate not to have fallen prey to the Vanwasi Kalyan Ashramites, >>>> who seem >>>> to develp ulcer calling me an Adivasi. The Saffrons want me to >>>> 'return' to >>>> Hinduism, right? Watch out! Return, you said? What return? Where >>>> return? Who >>>> is the oldest dweller of the soil, the blood curdling fanatics or >>>> Adivasis? >>>> Is that not why my 'Adivasiyat' has been recycled into 'Vanvasiyat'? >>>> If I >>>> wish, I may embrace Hinduism right now (online, if Vedas certify it as >>>> valid). >>>> >>>> May I ask the Saffron brigage if they will grant me a Brahmin's status >>>> and make me the chief pujari at Puri temple or Akshardham temple or >>>> what >>>> have you? If yes, I may start typing an application letter right away. >>>> But >>>> don't tell me to hate other religions and their followers. That's not >>>> the >>>> Hinduism I may love to convert to. I studied Hinduism and several >>>> other >>>> Indian religions. None taught me to hate others. I can recite and >>>> comment on >>>> some shlokas of Bhagwadgeeta off the bat. I even meditate on them. I >>>> loved >>>> watching 'Ramayan' tele-serial and have already read the Hindu epics >>>> with >>>> relish. I love to participate in spiritual discourses of some Hindu >>>> sects >>>> (certainly not those sponsored by the Brigade). Which edition of >>>> Hinduism >>>> are you talking about? >>>> >>>> Cyprian Ekka >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> >>> >>> __._,_ >>> >> >> >> >
