Mike wrote: >>What surprises me is that NORAID is unknown to people of Irish descent, like Kakki, and others. It is widely known in Britain and is hardly a secret in many places in the USA.<< Kakki responded:
>>And I'm totally baffled that you would be surprised that I didn't know about NORAID. Do you think American people with some Irish background are somehow born with this knowledge?<< Mike says Without getting too (Groucho) Marxist about it, I would say that I am surprised that you are baffled that I would be surprised. No, I don't believe that anyone from any background is born with any knowledge. But I do believe that the well-educated population of the world's most modern industrial country lives in a well-informed society with a huge media presence and this would allow them (not force them) to have access to this type of information. I simply expressed surprise that these facts are unknown to many, and it's especially surprising, to me, that if we throw an Irish ethnic background into the equation, then we have a possible reason for looking into these areas. I stress 'possible'. I'm not suggesting people of Irish backgrounds must, or should, look into political matters, only that they would appear to have an extra interest (because of their ethnic background) in Irish matters. Presidents Reagan, Carter and Clinton all made trips to Ireland to find their roots, and thousands, if not millions of US citizens go over to Ireland for the same purpose. One of the key factors, for better or worse, in 'keeping alive' the idea of the 'ould country' is the oral transmission of the old stories. In the case of the Irish, I imagine that these would often refer to exile, famine, struggle and discrimination. Remember the scene in 'Michael Collins' where Liam Neeson points to the old family cottage, saying something like "That's where it all started, listening to stories round the old turf fire in Skibbereen". I quote from memory, forgive the errors. I find it difficult to believe that these 'old stories' are not still in circulation. Kakki said >> The way NORAID itself portrays itself (on the internet) is exactly as a humanitarian organization for oppressed families in Northern Ireland. They say nothing about being a channel for the IRA.<< Given that the IRA is now regarded as a terrorist organisation in the USA do you really expect NORAID to say it is a channel for raising funds for the IRA to buy weapons? Does the CIA's website say that they are undermining democratic governments? Does the French Government's website talk about blowing up the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland Harbour? Of course not. Kakki asked: >> You cannot imagine that some sympathetic people of Irish descent in the U.S. would give to them (NORAID) thinking that they were just trying to help poor children?<< Of course I can imagine this. I am absolutely sure that the majority of these people DO give for this reason. I can also imagine other people giving money knowing where it's really going. In the Basque Country here in Spain there are bars where the tips don't go to the barmen, but instead go into a bomb-shaped jar which then goes to ETA. In these circles it is very clear that humanitarian aid is not the real destination of the money. I strongly suspect (to put it mildly) that there are some people in the USA who are equally knowing about where NORAID money is destined to end up. Kakki said: >>I don't think you can expect Americans to solve or understand the problems over there very easily.<< I don't think anyone anywhere can understand the problems very easily, and I don't particularly want or expect the Americans to solve the problem, although anything that would help bring a lasting peace to Ireland is welcome. I think Clinton's visit was positive in this respect. Rob Ettridge said: >>NORAID is fairly well known in the UK. It is definitely a source of anti-American feeling, especially whenever there is a bomb or a bombscare. This is not to say that myself or the majority of the British public necessarily share this view. But I do know people that I would consider to be anti-American and the NORAID issue is definitely fuel to that fire.<< I agree with Rob's comments Rob continued >>One example of an Irish-American who openly supported the IRA was Gene Kelly. He was proud of making regular donations and saw them as freedom fighters. << I think this would also go for John Ford and probably John Huston as well. Quoting from memory, don't sue me. Mike wrote: >> The US govt has on occasions refused to extradite people wanted by the British govt for terrorist activities, accepting the argument that the person wanted by the Brits had been engaged in a 'legitimate conflict'. Judge Sprizzo, delivered this verdict in 1986 in New York,<< Philip said that: >>Judges make decisions based on law. Are you saying the judge should have disregarded the law and handed the man over just because Britain said so?<< NO. Philip said that: >>Britain's appalling record on human rights may have been a factor the judge had to consider (Britain was found guilty by an international court of torturing innocent citizens in Northern Ireland).<< I agree totally. Philip said that: >>Britain's disgraced legal system may also not have helped their case. The 80's was the time when the world became aware of innocent Northern Irish citizens banged up in British prisons for crimes they did not commit, based on confessions they were beaten into making.<< I agree totally. Mike said >> Doherty was visited in prison by Cardinal O'Connor of NYC and the Irish Cardinal O'Fiach.<< Philip said >>Not sure what point you are making here. Are you saying that prisoners should not be allowed visits? In this case a prisoner who had not been convicted of any crime.<< The point I was trying to make was the fact that the two Cardinals visited Doherty makes it a newsworthy item, one which I imagine people in NYC, and especially Irish-American people, would see on their TVs and read in their papers. Of course prisoners who have not been convicted should be allowed visitors, but can you think of other such cases where such high-profile people visited an accused terrorist? When was the last time any Cardinal went to visit anyone in prison? Did any Cardinals vist Timothy McVeigh? Would any high-ranking church official visit Bin Laden in prison? Philip said that: >>Terrorism and violence are abhorrent as far as I'm concerned.<< I agree. Philip said that: >>Northern Ireland is as legitimately and legally a part of Britain as Surrey.<< I don't agree on this one, but it's cool. mike in barcelona np Pogues, Birmingham Six
