Linux-Advocacy Digest #633, Volume #25 Tue, 14 Mar 00 22:13:06 EST
Contents:
Re: What might really help Linux (a developer's perspective) (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re: Darwin or Linux
(Sal Denaro)
Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re: Darwin or Linux
(JEDIDIAH)
Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re: Darwin or Linux
(Matt Kennel)
Re: Comparison between Linux and FreeBSD! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Giving up on NT (Bob shows his lack of knowledge yet again) (David H. McCoy)
Re: Salary? (Christopher Browne)
Re: Predatory LINUX practices with NETSCAPE Navigator! (Christopher Browne)
Re: Enemies of Linux are MS Lovers (Roger)
Re: Oh Yeah Baby!! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re:Darwin (Michael
Paquette)
Re: Novell + Linux = Two Losers Screwing in a Lightbulb ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Salary? (Donovan Rebbechi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: What might really help Linux (a developer's perspective)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:23:36 GMT
On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:15:00 -0500, Netway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:23:02 -0500, Rich Cloutier
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >"Donal K. Fellows" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> >news:8algc7$qhg$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> >> In article <38cdfa06@news>, Rich Cloutier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >wrote:
>> >> > As far as standards go, [DnD] needs to be done at the LOWEST COMMON
>> >> > DENOMINATOR ie, XFree86, so that every graphical program can conform
>> >> > to the standards, whether it be KDE, Gnome, or Fred's Desktop
>> >> > Environment.
>> >>
>> >> No, it goes in at the toolkit level so that no matter what display
>> >> hosts your Linux session, you can use DnD! Furthermore, supporting a
>> >> DnD protocol, especially one as rich as Xdnd (which is used by both
>> >> KDE and Gnome,) takes quite a lot of work to do even after you handle
>> >> the basics of actually talking the protocol, since you need to deal
>> >> with all the user activity during the drag, etc. Hence it is doubly a
>> >> natural for the toolkit level, e.g. Qt and GTK[-+]*.
>> >>
>> >> Donal.
>> >
>> >Then you've got to make sure that EVERY toolkit is DnD compatible. To me,
>as
>>
>> No you don't. DnD is somewhat orthogonal to the core function
>> of a gui widgetset. It's perfectly feasable to exploit DnD
>> functionality quite independent of what widget library you
>> are using.
>>
>Yes, but WHERE do you do that? If as Donal says it goes in at the toolkit
In some system call. Instead of GNOME_foobar() it would be
OffiX_foobar. It doesn't really matter where the entry point
is as long as the underlying communications mechanism is
compatible.
>level, then doesn't the implementation depend on the toolkit? And if it is
The implementation of what? A DnD protocol is (or should be) a
well known and understood process. Whether or not it's KDE's
bit of code stuffing and pulling things out of the message pipe
or GNOME's really shouldn't matter.
>implemented elsewhere, doesn't every 'parallel' set of functions have to
>support it in the same way? That's why I made my point that it should be
>done at the lowest common denominator: XFree86. That way, no matter what you
Nope. That makes Xfree less flexible and less cleanly segregated
in terms of orthogonal functionality. It might make sense to have
an XDnD library that both libkde and libgnome can make use of.
However, it's not really necessary.
>use to design your app, or what environment you design it for, DnD will
>still work with it, as long as it goes on top of X (and you build in the
>support, of course.)
--
|||
Resistance is not futile. / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Sal Denaro)
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re: Darwin or
Linux
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:58:13 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:07:00 GMT, JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>For the effort needed to get onto the market it sounds like a very
>>bad business decision. Lots of effort for 1/10 the potential market.
>
> Actually, the code is already there. It just doesn't appear
> to be very well abstracted within itself. You are vastly
> overstating the effort involved.
Based on what? Have you seen the QT code? Do you know how portable or
non portable it is?
>>>Plus there's cross compatibility with
>>> the PSX/2, imbedded systems and anyone else platform not
>>> owned by a company that annoyed the FSF too badly...
>>
>>What does the PSX/2 have in common with *nix/X11?
>
> gcc
<sarcasm>
Well in that case a palm pilot and a cray have some degree of cross
platform compatibility...
</sarcasm>
If you think something like QuickTime system can be abstracted from
the display type, sound hardware, color models and processor just
by writing it in c, I'm pretty sure you are way off.
>><sarcasm>
>>Yeah... it's almost as bad as Redhat/Corel/SuSE et al taking all that
>>open source from around the world, sticking it on a CD and selling it
>>for profit.
>></sarcasm>
>
> I got my versions of Redhat, Corel & Suse gratis.
So what? RedHat, Corel and SuSE _sell_ Linux just like Apple sells
Darwin as part of OSX.
> Mind you, they don't make take credit for things that were
> never theirs to begin with. When Linux companies try to pull
> such stunts they tend to be ripped apart in fairly short order.
Huh? Has Apple taken credit for either BSD or Mach?
Keep in mind that getting a BSD on Mach system that happens to be
synced up to FreeBSD and includes some NetBSD and OpenBSD code isn't
just a matter of doing a make all;make install. Apple put _some_
effort into Darwin. It is probably on a similar scale to the effort
put in to any of the major Linux distributions.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Salvatore Denaro
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re: Darwin or
Linux
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:13:00 GMT
On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:58:13 GMT, Sal Denaro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:07:00 GMT, JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>For the effort needed to get onto the market it sounds like a very
>>>bad business decision. Lots of effort for 1/10 the potential market.
>>
>> Actually, the code is already there. It just doesn't appear
>> to be very well abstracted within itself. You are vastly
>> overstating the effort involved.
>
>Based on what? Have you seen the QT code? Do you know how portable or
>non portable it is?
Mucking about in DVD players and MPEG decoders. I've also
mucked about in other interesting things but if I told
you about them, I would have to kill you.
Wouldn't be a great loss though.
There's also a bit of absurd optimism regarding the
professional software practices at Apple imbedded in
their as well...
>
>>>>Plus there's cross compatibility with
>>>> the PSX/2, imbedded systems and anyone else platform not
>>>> owned by a company that annoyed the FSF too badly...
>>>
>>>What does the PSX/2 have in common with *nix/X11?
>>
>> gcc
>
><sarcasm>
>Well in that case a palm pilot and a cray have some degree of cross
>platform compatibility...
></sarcasm>
>
If that hardware could manage more than an SI of about ~5,
you might actually be able to get somewhere with it actually.
Decoding a bit of encoded data is primarily a computational
undertaking.
>If you think something like QuickTime system can be abstracted from
>the display type, sound hardware, color models and processor just
>by writing it in c, I'm pretty sure you are way off.
What multimedia code have you written or even bothered to
look at? It's actually quite common for such things to be
abstracted at the level of C as to shield individual coders
from the oddities of a particular platform.
This is true even in Win32-centric shops.
>
>>><sarcasm>
>>>Yeah... it's almost as bad as Redhat/Corel/SuSE et al taking all that
>>>open source from around the world, sticking it on a CD and selling it
>>>for profit.
>>></sarcasm>
>>
>> I got my versions of Redhat, Corel & Suse gratis.
>
>So what? RedHat, Corel and SuSE _sell_ Linux just like Apple sells
>Darwin as part of OSX.
They sell it. They don't take credit for it beyond the
little bits and bobs that they add. They don't hark on
the fact that they freely re-release those other bits
and bobs that they themselves got as a bit of charity.
[deletia]
--
|||
Resistance is not futile. / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matt Kennel)
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re: Darwin or
Linux
Date: 15 Mar 2000 01:44:30 GMT
Reply-To: mbkennel@<REMOVE THE BAD DOMAIN>yahoo.spam-B-gone.com
On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:02:33 GMT, JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:On 13 Mar 2000 03:00:10 GMT, Matt Kennel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>On Sat, 11 Mar 2000 06:41:05 GMT, JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>:On 8 Mar 2000 21:32:46 GMT, Salvatore Denaro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>:>On 8 Mar 2000 14:06:09 GMT, John Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>:>>Why didn't Apple make a Quicktime player for Linux?
:>:>
:>:>Linux has 4% of the desktop and 25% of servers shipped last year. What
:>:
:>: A Linux port would also cover the gruntwork for any posix
:>: compatible system including ALL the other Unixen and quite
:>: likely BeOS.
:>
:>Disagree. POSIX doesn't cover the sort of high-performance graphics
:>models and bitmap models and color models that a Quicktime player would
:>need, nor any of the interface.
:
: Why? Most of the gruntwork in video and audio decoding is
: computational.
human programmer gruntwork != computational grunt work
: Bit banging hardware really has little to
: do with it. Although things like hardware accelerated
: YUV->RGB host to videoram blits can be quite useful. The
: shouldn't be a showstopper on current CPUs.
Well the computational parts are probably in portalble ANSI C and
POSIX doesn't matter anyway. The question is how do you write a
Quicktime Player of acceptable quality and GUI interface and
performance? POSIX is nearly irrelevant except for sockets.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Comparison between Linux and FreeBSD!
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 02:02:35 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Justin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Id like to get the "linux" opinion of this issue, What are your
> opinions?
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
>
Assuming this isn't a troll....
FreeBSD is -- obviously -- a member of the *BSD family. The BSDs use a
different init scheme than Linux, and handle certain technical things like
threading differently. Still, FreeBSD and Linux are more alike than different, and
they can both run much of the same software. (FreeBSD can even run lots of
Linux binaries natively.) FreeBSD also has a *really* cool technology called the
"ports tree", where the OS can automatically download source, patch it, compile it,
and install it with one command. Only Debian's apt command comes close.
HTH. HAND.
------------------------------
From: David H. McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Giving up on NT (Bob shows his lack of knowledge yet again)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 02:13:26 GMT
In article <38cced89$1$yrgbherq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jason Bowen) said:
>
> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Thingfishhhh
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>In article <8agv29$dgm$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jason Bowen) wrote:
> >>
> >>> In article <38cba2e0$2$obot$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >>> Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>> >On 03/11/2000 at 11:41 PM,
> >>> > Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> That's why the Linux/Win98SE dual boot box has only 64 meg - it's an
> >>> >> Intel 430TX chipset MB. It will take more ram but only caches 64 meg.
> >>> >
> >>> >Unless, of course, you are running OS/2. Then all the ram can be used
> >>> >provided you tell the Bios you are smart enough to run OS/2. I have Warp
> >>> >running on a 430TX motherboard with the Award Bios set for using OS/2.
> >>> >When thus set, all 96 megs are available and the swapfile never grows
> >>> >beyond the allocated size.
> >>>
> >>> Unless you are a complete fucking idiot
> >>
> >>Maybe it's me, but anytime you address anyone over a computer matter
> >>this way says to me you need a break and/or to get laid, and you take
> >>this WAAAAAAAY to seriously.
>
> >Nah just treating Bob how he treats others.
>
> >>
> >>Are computers really worth that kind of venom and angst?
>
> >You'd have to read Bob's hate filled diatribes on non-OS/2 using people to
> >answer that question.
>
> ...after it was started by the wincrap assholes, who come here loaded with an
> obnoxiousness that looks for it, and who apparently don't have any other life
> since they are always here.
>
So, Bob's bigoted comments is okay because some Windows user started it?
What a weenie. Your mom would be disappointed.
>
> _____________
> Ed Letourneau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Salary?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 02:27:35 GMT
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when Donovan Rebbechi would say:
>On 8 Mar 2000 16:59:45 GMT, Joseph T. Adams wrote:
>>A surprisingly and saddeningly large amount of poverty persists in the
>>U.S.,
>
>Overrated IMO. There are food handouts which makes it unlikely that
>anyone will go hungry. And even most of the "poor" have hot water,
>food, electricity, refrigerators, stereos and TV.
... And while this puts them ahead of starving Somalians, this does
not establish that they are not poor.
What it *does* establish is that the cost of providing two things,
namely:
- Manufactured goods, and
- Electricity
have dropped to the point that they are not economic barriers.
Thirty years ago, having those commodities was an indicator of being
"reasonably well-to-do." Today, it's not; someone can be living in a
roach-infested hovel and have them all.
I'd count "quality of real estate" as the critical indicator of the
level of poverty; it is a better indicator than the other items.
--
Your latest program has been judged UNTASTEFUL by the T daemon;
and automatically deleted.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Predatory LINUX practices with NETSCAPE Navigator!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 02:27:38 GMT
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when hot_offer would say:
>Everyone complains about Microsoft putting the Internet Explorer icon
>on the desktop and including it with the installation of their
>operating system. Monopolistic and controlling. And they give it
>away for free.
>
>Yet, install any distribution of Linux and they put the Netscape
>Navigator icon on the desktop and it is included with the
>installation of the Linux operating system. It is installed by
>DEFAULT. And they give it away for free.
>
>Hmmm....see the obvious parallel. Amazing similar isn't it? And yet
>every Linux Lacky will claim this is TOTALLY different. No it's not.
>Same thing, same reasons, same way. But denial is far easier to
>swallow in the Linux camp apparently.
Does Netscape sell an operating system? Do they bundle anything with
it?
No, they do not, which is rather different from the situation with
MSFT. The lawsuits have centred on the fact that Microsoft is the
creator vendor of both OS and web browser. (Which ignores the fact
that both code bases were once purchased from other companies, but
there has been enough code under the bridge to minimize the importance
of that...)
In any case, MSFT both:
a) Produces and sells an operating system, and
b) Produces and installs a web browser.
Those factors are not true for *ANY* of the vendors of Linux-based
systems.
And your claims about the "icon on desktop" are outright false.
Between Christmas and now, I have installed all of:
- SuSE,
- Red Hat Linux,
- TurboLinux,
- Caldera OpenLinux,
- Corel Linux, and
- Debian Linux.
In *none* of the cases was there an "icon" on the desktop to invoke
Netscape. *Not one.* In the case of Debian, Netscape wasn't even *on
the CD.*
--
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Some poems rhyme
But this one doesn't.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/msprobs.html>
------------------------------
From: Roger <roger@.>
Crossposted-To: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Enemies of Linux are MS Lovers
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 02:36:30 GMT
On 14 Mar 2000 04:49:58 -0500, someone claiming to be Norman D. Megill
wrote:
>See step 18 in my repost of the procedure. I personally experienced
>this problem, and in addition it was confirmed by Gateway. The symptom
>is rather eerie - the screen turns a yellowish-brown that fades to black
>at the bottom, and over a period of a several seconds the yellow region
>fades to black.
>
> Apply (Display Properties) (WARNING: DO NOT PRESS 'CLOSE' HERE
> BECAUSE DISPLAY WILL DISAPPEAR, THE COMPUTER WILL LOCK UP
> PERMANENTLY EVEN IF YOU TRY TO REBOOT, AND YOU'LL HAVE TO
> REFORMAT DISK AND START OVER
>
>Now, to be honest I do not know if you *really* have to reformat and
>start over - perhaps something could be recovered in Safe mode - but
>life is short and I have better things to do with my time than
>experiment with MS bugs.
You misspelled "bugs in the NeoMagic MagicGraph 128XD driver," since
it is the only driver I have ever run across / heard about with this
problem.
That being the case, it is likely in the extreme that starting in Safe
Mode would allow you to correct this problem -- exactly as it is
designed to do.
>I do know that upon rebooting in normal mode
>the screen turned black as soon as Windows started. The suggestion to
>reformat and start over was Gateway's, and I just did it to save time.
>
>--Norm
>
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Oh Yeah Baby!!
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 02:25:37 GMT
In article
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Codifex Maximus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's called being competitive.
> Codifex Maximus
>
At four out of the last five locations I've worked, Novell has been the
network operating system of choice. To be fair, this encompasses
twenty-plus years, but once again, I'm back in a Novell shop (started
Monday). And the degree of bitchiness from the Novell users here is
much more subdued than what it was at my previous site (which ran WinNT
exclusively).
Keerist, is that ever putting it mildly....
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Michael Paquette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Darwin AND Linux rather than Darwin OR Linux? (was Re:Darwin
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 02:49:49 GMT
Kar-Han Tan wrote:
>
> Well, on the issue of opening Quicktime, I think people have noted at
> least a few good reasons why it won't happen tomorrow (maybe in couple
> years):
> 1. QT for MacOS X isn't even finished
> 2. Apple doesn't own the codecs
> 3. Linux people don't really like Quicktime anyway
>
> so, even if they did open Quicktime, I suspect it won't be a smooth ride
> on the hype wave.
Well, typing as someone who was a member of a 4 man team that did
build a QuickTime clone, complete with plug-in architecture,
editing, and a tiny bit of video capture and recording, running on
a Unix derivative, I'd like to chime in.
It can be done. Apple's QuickTime documentation ("Inside
QuickTime". It's a book. You can order it. It costs something
like $29.95. Outrageous, huh?) is quite detailed, and the file
format is well documented, easily extended, and actually makes
sense. The file parser took me maybe 1.5 man-weeks. I did it as
a work for hire. Yes, I prostituted myself for filthy lucre. The
people who hired me own it. They can do with it as they please.
The popular codecs aren't owned by Apple. Cinepak is owned by
SuperMac or their descendants, and Sorenson is owned by... Sorenson.
You can negotiate with them for binaries, or buy them out if you
want source. It IS their intellectual property (even if you don't
believe in that sort of thing).
Sorenson wasn't around when I did this project, but SuperMac was, so
we dickered. They tossed in rights to put the Cinepak logo on the
packaging of the player software, too.
If you feel particularly aggressive, you could reverse engineer the
codecs. Hint: read up on V-Q coding schemes. It's not hard. I
know of a Cinepak-compatible encoder that never ever was near the
Cinepak authors, and does a better job than Cinepak (lower
bits/pixel for same figure of merit). It was done by a
mathematician who became curious about Cinepak compression. He did
it. It's his code.
The information is all out there. You don't need squat from Apple.
If you really want a QuickTime clone either copylefted or open
sourced, knock off the whining, get off your butt, and do it. Show
us what a totally kewl coder you are.
The world doesn't owe you a living. Others who own things (even if
you don't agree with the idea of ownership) can do with them what
they want. You can do what you want with what you create.
It's up to you.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Novell + Linux = Two Losers Screwing in a Lightbulb
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 02:43:07 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hugh G. Rexshun) wrote:
> Now Novell has really scraped the bottom of the barrel. They have
thrown in
> the towel and are offering NDS for Linux.
>
> It is like watching two iMac users try to install Quake! Funny as shit
and a
> losing proposition at best.
>
>
Usually I try to be humorous. And I like a good constructive argument
as much as anyone or I wouldn't be here.
But you are without a doubt a compleat shithead. You have no idea what
the fuck you're even talking about. You don't know Novell and you don't
know Linux. Not even peripherally. I'm amazed you even know how to
spell them. When I fart, more knowledge passes between my cheeks than
is embodied in your miniscule skull. You are the culmination of a
descendancy of interbred morons, and the worst of breed in your lineage.
So much for the humor...
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Salary?
Date: 15 Mar 2000 03:09:32 GMT
On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 02:27:35 GMT, Christopher Browne wrote:
>Thirty years ago, having those commodities was an indicator of being
>"reasonably well-to-do." Today, it's not; someone can be living in a
>roach-infested hovel and have them all.
Even then, they have hot water and heating -- things that you may take
for granted, but are not available to many people.
I'd agree that housing costs in the US are fairly high.
However, housing costs do not rise in direct proportion to the number of
people sharing an apartment/house, so those housholds with very low
income per head ( ie those with dependents ) will not be hit as hard.
>I'd count "quality of real estate" as the critical indicator of the
>level of poverty; it is a better indicator than the other items.
Even if that's your yardstick, it's pretty good in the US.
IMO, the biggest problem with "quality of real estate" is that a lot of
places have high crime rates.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
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