Linux-Advocacy Digest #835, Volume #28 Sat, 2 Sep 00 14:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: How low can they go...? ("Simon Cooke")
Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools (Rick)
Re: How low can they go...? ("Simon Cooke")
Re: How low can they go...?
Re: How low can they go...? ("Simon Cooke")
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...) (Courageous)
Re: How low can they go...? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Courageous)
Re: Windows stability(Memory Comparison) (Thomas Corriher)
Re: Sherman Act vaguery [was: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?] (Courageous)
Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools (Rick)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Simon Cooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 17:43:37 GMT
"Zenin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Simon Cooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> : "Zenin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >snip<
> :> 3) Only after an extreme backlash of bad press did MS even consider
> :> documenting any of it.
> :
> : Actually, IIRC, according to an article on slashdot it had apparently
been
> : sitting there in a TechNet the whole time anyway... definitely a case of
> : the left not knowing what the right was doing.
>
> Do you mean this one:
>
> http://slashdot.org/articles/00/06/28/0042228.shtml
>
> Which strongly alludes to MS forging the "last updated" timestamp to
> make it appear as if it had "been sitting there in a TechNet the
> whole time"?
Well, if you think that's true, how about the name, phone number, et al of
the person who forged it? Presumably that level of evidence either way is
easy to obtain.
BTW: My posting is currently alluding to the fact that Cmdr Taco is a
transvestite.
> Are you denying the existence of MS's initial "click-through"
> license and declaration of "trade secret" they originally forced
> viewers to go through to get at the docs, as described here:
NO.
> http://slashdot.org/features/00/05/16/1321225.shtml
>
> If it was so easily available on TechNet the whole time, why did
> Microsoft freak out so much when parts of it were posted on
> SlashDot, upto and including, "pulling out the DMCA to get those
> posts removed". If the document was so open and available, why oh
> why would it have possibly been able to spawn as large of a mess as
> is detailed here:
>
> http://slashdot.org/search.pl?query=Kerberos+Microsoft
Because The Left Hand Does Not Know What The Right Hand Is Doing @
Microsoft. I kid you not.
> No, sorry, but Microsoft's intentions and motives are abundantly
> crystal clear on this matter. There is no gray, there is no opinion
> any more then one can hold an opinion on the color of the sky.
Given that you were the person who injected opinion into this thread in the
first place, that's a mighty fine statement.
As for their intentions being abundantly clear... yeah, right.
Simon
------------------------------
From: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 13:48:10 -0400
"Joe R." wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rick
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > "Joe R." wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rick
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >At the present time, public schools are massively under-funded.
> > > > > >Class
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet those private schools seem to do more with less.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > No, they dont. Private schools have MORE $/student than public
> > > > schools.
> > > > Public schools have always done more eith less, especially K-12.
> > >
> > > I think you'd have to back that up.
> > >
> >
> > Well... Im not going to go do all the research for you... but I'll tell
> > you what to look for.
>
> You made the assertion. (Actually, jdei started it by saying public
> schools are massively underfunded and you supported him) Please feel
> free to back it up.
>
> >
> > Check the tuition prices for the private schools. Then check your local
> > schoolboard budget. You will see that the private schools have more
> > money.
>
> Not the school my kids used to go to. $3,300 tuition vs. an average
> public school budget of well over $7 K in that county.
>
You have a school that survives on $7000?
> Even with endowment money, the private school was less.
>
> >
> > You can also check what one FTE 9full time eqivalency) is in your home
> > state. That is the amount the state gives the school, or district per
> > student. Its not very much. The commercials now playing showing the
> > school teacher buying her own supplies is very real.
>
> That might be meaningful -- if the state were the only source of funds
> for schools. Local districts supply the largest amount, as well as some
> from the Federal government and some from the county (and a minscule
> amount from fund raisers, private donations, etc).
>
The State usually provides the funds to the district, so the district
isnt really providing the funds... at least, that is the way it works in
Florida. The Feds do provide a chuck, but I have never heard of County
government subsidizing the School Board.
> The fact is that jedi made the claim that public schools are underfunded
> and you supported it. I'm saying that that isn't obvious enough to
> escape without proof. Feel free to provide it.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Joe R.
--
Rick
* To email me remove theobvious from my address *
------------------------------
From: "Simon Cooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 17:46:46 GMT
"abraxas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8ootrl$1917$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
,` The fact is that most of the people who are saying these things have only
> seen OpenGL function under *windows*. DirectX is written specifically
> with windows in mind (since microsoft refused to port it to anything else;
> if youve ever seen the solaris 7 version of IE, youll understand easily
> that it isnt because it isnt in their best interest, but rather that
> they do not know HOW), and subsequently works very, very well under
> windows.
>
> And not under anything else.
>
> Now, if you would like to go see volumetric textures and multisample
> rendering courtesy of OpenGL, you have a number of options, but IRIX on
> an 02 is a pretty fair assessment.
Hmmm... well, given that most games are going to be written for Windows,
MacOS and Linux (in that order)... why would I bother looking at IRIX?
Simon
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 10:40:59 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> >T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> Said <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> >
> >> >If it is true that Apple is not factoring the OS cost into the overall
price
> >> >of the computer, then Apple must changed their actions in that
reguard.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure what you mean by "factoring in the cost". To me, the
> >> concept of "factoring in" means it isn't a direct cost to speak of.
> >
> >Max, do you have any education as an accountant? If so refresh youself
on
> >cost and managerial accounting you will see what I was referring to.
This
> >do not mean that as an insult or to chastise you, just a pointer to a
better
> >and more detailed treatment than can be provided here.
>
> I'm afraid I've got no formal education as an accountant; just a drop of
> experience with some small-office book-keeping.
>
> >All the same, here goes with a very simplified example to explain the use
of
> >the term to "factor in the cost":
>
> [...]
> >Combing the per unit cost and the per unit target profit we get the
> >$1,150.00/computer price.tag. The invoice would only list the computer's
> >price and the prorated cost of $20.00 for OS that was factored in.
> >
> >P.S. The quantites and monetary figures here are for example only and
not
> >to be considered as typical.
>
> Yes, that is what I figured you meant by "factored in". To be honest,
> to me, as a consumer, that's entirely meaningless. I don't pay
> percentages of my dollars to different parts of a company for the
> different contributions they made, regardless of how they do their
> accounting. I pay one price to purchase one thing from one company.
> Where the money goes from there is not my concern, really.
>
> With PC OSes, this is never the case, because the OS is not an internal
> component or an add-on. Nor is it, however, an integrated part of the
> computer; it can be added and removed and replaced with technical ease
> (application support aside). I have reconsidered what somebody said
> (Simon?) earlier; the EULA may literally be with the OEM, rather than
> Microsoft (I disagree that it can be both). It may be that this is the
> only way to model it, legally. But I think that just goes to show how
> disreputable and intolerable the whole practice is, as it is
> fundamentally dishonest and anti-competitive, the way its done now. It
> obviously isn't Dell's OS, so I don't see how I could be paying them for
> it. The problem is, of course, pinning down what 'it' is, like usual.
It make no different if the OS is written under the authority of the
manufacturer of the computer of if the manufacturer aquires it from else
were, the customer pays for it if they use it or not. In the case of the
example computer system of the if it did not come with the OS the price to
the customer would have been $1,130.00 instead of $1,150.00 for the machine.
Today, anyone buying a Windows box knows the OS comes from Microsoft. BUt
this was not always the case in the in the days of MS-Dos. Many boxes
shipped with MS-Dos named as such. Then there were also the version of
Microsoft's Dos made to look like it came from other developers. There was
PC-Dos, LE-Dos, HP-Dos, NCR-Dos, etc. The utility programs that came with
these varaitions of Dos were made to be different in minor and sometimes
major ways from each other and from the "standard" MS-Dos.
To add the the reason for the confusion that someone could feel in dealing
with these is that there were through out the Dos era other non-Microsoft
Dos's avilable for the PC systems; such as, DR-Dos, NEW-Dos (NEW-Dos not
NewDos the TRS-DOS clone).
I have addressed one way to handle the problem of bundled software/hardware
packages in a thread a few months back. Here it is a slightly edited
version (I corrected a couple of grammatical errors)
The law should be passed that no computer or harddrive can be sold with a
preinstalled OS or be bundled with and OS or software. No hardware
manufacturer, OS producer, or application software producer can be operate
in any of the other fields and may not form stratigic agreements with any
one operating in one of the prohibited fields. This would be much like the
division of banks, insurance, and security brokerages after the crash of
1929.
If a computer hardware firm wants to provide copies of an OS's
"preinstalled", they would have to sell the OS as a sepperate purchase with
the installation media preconfigured with all needed drivers to
automatically install to OS onto the precise computer model for which they
would have other wise install it on to. The customized OS packages and
media should be marked with a message like:
"Warning this copy of GeeWizOS version 3.5 has been customized
for use on Supercomp model 20X3.Y revision 30.1 computers only.
This copy of GeeWizOS and may not operate on any other computers
including on a Supercomp model 20X3.Y revision 30.1 computers if
modified in any way from the factory configuration.".
Any violation of the rules should be punishable under RICO. I am certain
that I have left some loop holes in this discription, but you get the
general idea.
------------------------------
From: "Simon Cooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 17:48:38 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Just putting your fingers in your ears and screaming won't
> make it go away.
Why not? You seem to try that tactic all the time.
Simon
------------------------------
From: Courageous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 17:52:50 GMT
> >My screen name is Courageous.
> Sorry, 'Courageous'; I misread it.
>
> I, personally, would prefer that you
> not post under a pseudonym. When you consider my preferences,
> 'Courageous', I will consider yours.
It's generally considered impolite to express preferences to
what someone calls themselves.
> >Given that the original statements were made some time back, it
> >should not surprise you that I was misquoting him.
>
> I didn't say it surprised me. I said I wanted to make it clear. As far
> as I know, there's no statute of limitations on honesty.
You are continuing to be rude. Is this a habit of yours?
> Funny, it sure looked like you were saying "if you can't prove it to me,
> its not true".
We've already covered this ground. If he can't proffer some example,
then he doesn't have an argument.
C//
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 14:00:09 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Mike Byrns in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Said Mike Byrns in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>> >[...]So you all bitch about how corrupt Microsoft is
>> >when it's really an industry wide corruption (and a government
>corruption, etc.)
>> >Seems the only folks not corrupt are the Mac and linux users :-)
>>
>> The "industry wide corruption" is called 'a monopoly'.
>
>That's not it's definition at all. You know that. At least I hope you do.
What I know is the difference between a definition and a description.
>> >Either way. That's the way the world works. Get used to it. [...]
>>
>> Microsoft's been convicted. Get used to it.
>
>Conviction is one thing. Guilt will be determined at the end of litigation.
Still not used to it, huh?
--
T. Max Devlin
-- Such is my recollection of my reconstruction
of events at the time, as I recall. Consider it.
Research assistance gladly accepted. --
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: Courageous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 17:59:51 GMT
> Man is a social creature; you can't hand-wave that. It feels good, to
> help others. Its inherent in our psyche.
Sure.
> >People are much, much more selfish than they think.
>
> This is a denial of the concept of free will; people decide how selfish
> to be. Are you saying that people don't have free will?
No.
> They think they are as selfish as they are, and are as selfish as
> they think they are.
Not in my experience.
> How much that selfishness influences their actions is a moral
> issue, for each person to consciously make.
Now that I agree with. But do keep in mind that we sometimes attempt
to legislate morality.
> But then, again, they are doing it, consciously or not,
> honestly or not, because they want to help others. I think people are a
> lot more selfless than you think they are.
The moment someone starts using inaction as a claim of immorality,
they are, in my experience, very much more selfish than they think
they are.
> >Inaction is no grounds for immorality.
>
> I think you mean "inaction is no grounds for a claim of immorality".
Yes.
> Which is true, ...
I'm glad you see it that way. :)
> but then, about any consideration of 'morality' in any
> way can be true; morality is however you justify your actions, ...
Truth or falseness aside, I've yet to see someone make this
particular claim and have an internally consistent epistemology.
> *Ethics*, on the other hand, concerns the consideration of those actions
> and how they affect other people. Inaction is certainly ground for a
> claim that someone is 'acting' unethically.
Then everyone in the world acts unethically. And that's exactly
what I mean. When people offer arguments like this, and then I
point out that when judged by their own value system they come
forth lacking, they really squirm.
C//
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thomas Corriher)
Subject: Re: Windows stability(Memory Comparison)
Date: 2 Sep 2000 17:53:14 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], abuse@[127.0.0.1]
On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 20:11:12 -0500,
Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Which is exactly the same way it works under Windows.
This is ridictlously false. Let me repeat *ridictlously*.
Please educate us on how MS Windo~1 dynamically restructures
memory so that the maximum amount of memory is always
utilized. Educate us, of the ignorant Linux masses.
Steve, you obviously do not understand how temporary data storage
(memory) works in general, and therefore, not not understand how
it is used in either Windows or Linux. I am not being mean here;
just honest. To the technical people here, who do understand,
your arguements make you look very stupid. You are "the emperor
without clothes".
What makes you look the most foolish is that you are arguing
about how graphical systems use memory with a developer on the
KDE project. (HINT: KDE is a graphical/windowing sub-system).
I think he probably has a pretty good understanding of what
he is talking about. You could even say that he is a master.
How many windowing operating system components have you coded?
How many memory management sub-systems have you designed that
cooperate with a networked, multi-platform, windowing system?
We already know the answer, so you do not need to answer.
Would you like to argue with Linus about how kernels work
while you are at it?
To put it bluntly: You are _WAY_ out of your league.
By the way, I can limit how much memory my users are allowed
to use on my system by simply editing the "limits.conf" file.
How is this done in Windo~1? I am just curious, of course. :)
Notice also that the file name ends with 4 characters since
I am allowed any file name I choose.
Just like Windo~1, right?
--
From the desk of Thomas Corriher
The real email address is:
corriher at surfree.
com
------------------------------
From: Courageous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sherman Act vaguery [was: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?]
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 18:02:50 GMT
> Not at all. However, you and he share a common inability to deal with
> facts.
Oh? And what facts are those?
C//
------------------------------
From: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 14:12:33 -0400
Bob Germer wrote:
>
> On 09/01/2000 at 05:25 PM,
> Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> > At the present time, public schools are massively under-funded. Class
> > sizes are extremely large. If you want better education in public
> > schools.. re-institute a students right to fail a course. Re-institute
> > having the student take responsibility for their own actions.
>
> Debunking this makes everything you post fit only for the bit bucket.
>
> My wife was a teacher in an inner city public school in a rust belt city
> for 31 years. I kept many of her class records for her on my computers
> beginning in 1984. I have every class list from that time until she
> retired two years ago. AT NO TIME DID SHE EVER HAVE MORE THAN 22 STUDENTS.
> In five of those years her class size was less than 15. Any time ANY
> teacher in that district had more than 17 students, he or she had a FULL
> TIME, qualified, classroom aide.
>
I wouldbeinterested to know what the teacher/student ratio is NOW.
> Conversely, the four private schools in the area, had average class sizes
> of 25 or more students. Two of those schools were run by Roman Catholic
> parishes, one by a Black Church, and one by the Episcopal Diocese. Tuition
> at the first three never exceeded $500 per student per semester. The
> Episcopal school, St. Mary's Academy and Doane Hall, charged about $7,000
> per student per year. Of course, even that was more than $2,000 a year
> LESS than the Burlington City cost per pupil which exceeded $9,000 per
> year in 1997.
>
How much money, above tuition, was provided by the churches, and where
are your per student costs for the private schools?
> Now, Mr. Big Spender, tell us just how the public schools of Burlington
> City, NJ are under-funded when they garner far more per pupil than private
> schools such as St. Mary's which is ENTIRELY SELF-SUSTAINING and has to
> pay every teacher, etc. BTW, St. Mary's only hires state certified
> teachers as do the public schools and pays as much or more than the City
> schools.
>
Im sure the public schools only employ certified teachers also. You seem
to think the public school system has money to burn. It does not. It
only has its yearly allocation.
> Take also two other private schools in the immediate area, Moorestown
> Friends and Westfield Friends. Both are fully self-sustaining. Both are
> top rated schools.
>
> At Westfield, where class size is limited to 14, tuition from K-4 is
> $6,000 per year. From 5-8 it is $7,000. However, each additional student
> from the same family gets a $1,000 reduction. All teachers are
> state-certified.
>
> At Moorestown, the class size is limited to 18 in the elementary grades
> and 15 in the secondary school. Tuition is comparable to that of
> Westfield. Again, all teachers are fully state-certified.
>
> Having served as a school board member in our home community, I can tell
> you where the difference lies. It is in ADMINISTRATION. The City Schools
> have more clerical employees in the Board Office than St. Mary's and
> either Westfield or Moorestown COMBINED. Burlington City High School has
> more administrators for its <1,000 pupils than Moorestown, Westfield, St.
> Pauls, All Saints, and St. Mary's combined which educate well over 3,000
> total pupils.
>
If you served onthe school board, then you should know most public
school shave those clerical workers to process the mountains of
paperwork that are required.
> Oh, and by the way. In the City Schools, pupils must pay for their lunch.
> Those from low and moderate income families get reduced or free lunch
> which is paid for by a Federal Program and is "off budget". At Moorestown,
> Westfield, and St. Mary's, lunch is included in the tuition.
>
.. and what are the additional funding sources for these schools. What
is the FTE, or per student/per student funding of the private schools?
> Under funded? Not by a long shot.
Fine, fine. Where you are, the public schools have barrels of money and
they are run by incompetent administrators.. why didnt you do something
while you were on the board?
--
Rick
* To email me remove theobvious from my address *
------------------------------
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